What would you do?

[nev25]

I thought I would start a thread as I am tempted to post this in the thread “Tradies you gotta love them“ but it’s getting off the track of the original post
The scenario in question has happened a few times but the current one is a worry and I’m interested in seeing what comments I get back from Trades people and consumers
Ok I’m a self Employed Electrical Contractor
In this instance I was contacted by a kitchen /bathroom installer with the deal I would invoice the home owner.
This is a normal arrangement and I have no problem with this
But when I was originally contacted I was told it was around 4 hours work from experience when someone stated how long it usually means twice that.
Now understanding we have very stringent regulations we have to ahear to (Yes we can be fined and/or lose our licence if we don’t)

When I arrived on the job the kitchen installer said all I had to do is put power point in the cable has already been run.
Nothing was compliant so it was rip it out and re do.
Then the oven was wired on the same circuit so I installed a new circuit for the oven
Then there were some lights to be installed in a bulkhead then some under a cupboard.
This all happened over a few days.
Then there was the bathroom to have some work in I was told just replace the PowerPoint and get an ixl tastic and install it the wires are already there as there was one there previously.
So up in the ceiling I go to discover very old wiring that has no earth.
So another 2 days of putting a new circuit in for the Tastic and a few Power points (Indecently the original Power Point position was legally to close to the spa so it was repositioned other side of the doorway)
I was there late one night when the home owners come home from work and I discussed the job was going to cost a fortune and it might have been cheaper in the long run to just rewire the house the wife replied Yeah we know most of the power points are not earthed.
The wife then said well we just spent all this money on a new kitchen and bathroom we don’t want the house to burn down.
The husband looked a little concerned as he asked for a ballpark figure that I replied I have to work it out and then asked if I could replace the white power points and switches I just installed with black ones!
I am not there everyday as I am travelling 2 hours to get to the job
Apparently the home owner asked the installer a few days later for a round about figure the Electrical work was up to when he replied around $2000 the home owners almost fainted.
Now when I arrived the next time to finish the job I was told the bathroom was to dark and some light need to be installed above a mirror.

Now my dilemma and the reason for the post is what do I charge.
I’ve been there a total of 6 -8 hour days.
I charge as all Electricians $80 an hour plus GST
This means the job so far comes to over $4000 plus materials.
And there’s more to be done
But I would realistically charge 6 hours a day
But this still comes to over $3000
This in my opinion is a lot of money for the work done but seeing as I’ve been there so many days I’ve lost work else where, but everything is compliant and legal.

As I mentioned this has happened before but it was the home owner threw the extra things in.
At the end of the job I was accused of milking the job (As if) I had other jobs to go to why would I wast time on one.
Anyway I reluctantly settled out of court for half the amount owing.

The thing people don’t seem to understand is wires don’t magically crawl down walls and when we have to sign Compliant certificates we have to make sure that its compliant we have rules and regulations for a reason.
And some of us (Me included) like to have some pride in our work.

So the question I ask is what you would do in my position bearing in mind business operating costs and a family to feed.

[Frank&Earnest]

IMHO both this and the other thread should be moved to the "nothing to do with woodwork" forum.

[autogenous]

So the question I ask is what you would do in my position bearing in mind business operating costs and a family to feed.

Get another job. Why risk being litigated and lose your house when you will be held liable for other peoples actions.

The court outcome is indicative of the band wagon vexatious nature of people who have little respect of your concern for their well being.

At the end of the day the law has put you in a position that is not practical in the real world. You are vindicated for doing the right thing by your client yet it cost you money. An all more common occurrence amongst building trades.

Another perspective is that trades are responsible for checking the quality of materials going in when they aren't the manufacturer or supplier.
If a trade is responsible for checking a manufacturers in some cases every eg:tile because the client paid $100 m2 for absolute rubbish then your at fault and lost money because you a.wait for the client to come home and say go ahead with laying the rubbish, b. arrive to install then lose a day after refusing to go ahead with poor materials or preceding materials is absolute lunacy and impractical legislation.

Then people wonder why it costs more and more every year to have work done.
A. Infrastructure costs such as insurance in many forms, workers comp, public liability, professional indemnity and legal advice have pushed tradie business costs through the roof.
B. Over zealous safety compliance has left many trades pondering whether its worth the risk any more.

So many grey areas in compliance of material quality, safety, workers comp, tax, superannuation. Unrealistic. You can become a criminal without even trying. Its not cricket.

Honestly risking losing your house over an incident that isn't your fault is more than cause for concern. In your case you were entrapped into something that cost you money at the end of the day. Wonder how many people/tradies could wear $20000 legal fees and be paid only half the hours they put in.
Work 30 years to lose the lot. Not my kind of career. Better off pissing it up the wall or putting it all on red down the casino.

[madrat]

Now my dilemma and the reason for the post is what do I charge.
I’ve been there a total of 6 -8 hour days.
I charge as all Electricians $80 an hour plus GST
This means the job so far comes to over $4000 plus materials.
And there’s more to be done
But I would realistically charge 6 hours a day
But this still comes to over $3000
This in my opinion is a lot of money for the work done but seeing as I’ve been there so many days I’ve lost work else where, but everything is compliant and legal.

......The thing people don’t seem to understand is wires don’t magically crawl down walls and when we have to sign Compliant certificates we have to make sure that its compliant we have rules and regulations for a reason.
And some of us (Me included) like to have some pride in our work.

First of all, I know I shouldn't be name calling, but in my opinion, the homeowners are leeches.

From your costings, it looks like you tried to take the amount down a bit anyway and they (along with the legal channels) screwed you regardless.

I am not a tradie, but as a consumer I sure as hell would have asked what the costs were if I added work requests as I went along.

I commend you in wanting to take pride in your work and I sure would have paid for it (especially if I asked for it) knowing that my house was 'safe'...and not going to burn down.

Sorry to hear about your out of pockets. That outcome sure sucks.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to matter what work you're in or position you are in, someone always wants to rip you off.

Where is my faith in humanity??..........I am still looking under every rock I come across

[West OZ Mark]

You have to change your billing method. It is sad to say but you can't go by verbal ok's. I had to learn the hard way by experience that all quotes have to be on paper and any extras that may pop up (99% of the time) you have to go no further on the job, work out a price for extras and only continue when the extras have been signed off.
Might have to take it on the chin here but sort it out for further jobs

Thanks...Mark

[Wongo]

Sorry to hear about your story mate.

1. So who told you it was going to be a simple 4 hours job? Was it the kitchen /bathroom installer?

2. All the problems you discovered in the house, were they caused by work done by other electricians?

The homeowners must have been told that it would cost only 4 hours but in the end they needed to spend up to $4000. That is not easy for them to take. They could have taken it a bit better but..

I witnessed a lot of these when my in-laws were having the house build 4 years. I have met good builders (A bit childish and arrogant but his work was good), good plumbers (in fact very good plumber), tiler, bad kitchen guys (total bastards), etc. One day they were told they needed to spend another $50,000 but they took it really well. They are very reasonable, fair and understanding people.

It is an unfortunate situation and sorry I can’t really tell you what I would do. Good luck to you mate.

[Rookie]

As soon as the installer said that he wanted you to do the work, but you should bill the home owner, the relationship was between you and the home owner. The installer had wiped his hands of it. You said that this is common practice but I guess most of the time the estimates by these guys are in the ball park so it hasnn't become an issue.

The dilemna then is, do you take up the relationship with the homeowner and validate the scope of work straight away? This gets the home owner on side but potentially pee's off the installer who you need an ongoing relationship with. Or do you let the installer liaise with the homeowner which means you trust him to do the right thing and reset expectations?

No easy answer, but what effectively happened is that you let the installer do a quote for you, then had to try and get the work done hoping the homeowner was getting the right story from him.

Regardless of the industry, nobody can be effectively accountable for something if they don't have control of all the factors they need.
The installer should have asked you for a quote, or better, let you have the relationship with the homeowner and you could have managed expectations.

[jerryc]

Just had a lot of work on my bathroom. In the course of things other problems arose. I dealt with each tradesman on the job as it stood. Only once did I ask the plumber to do something extra and he laughed. "We call that a 'while you're here' job. Get them all the time." His method of dealing with it was simple. Job contracted for, cost so much, this is extra and will cost so much. We both knew before he started what was involved. He did say that with an unknown client he always puts the extent of the job and it's cost in writing.

Jerry

War doesn't decide who is right. War only decides who is left.

[Sturdee]

In this instance I was contacted by a kitchen /bathroom installer with the deal I would invoice the home owner. This is a normal arrangement and I have no problem with this. But when I was originally contacted I was told it was around 4 hours work from experience when someone stated how long it usually means twice that

The homeowner would have been advised by the kitchen/bathroom installer that the electrical work would only involve 4 hours the same as he advised you. The homeowner is not aware that you thought it was not enough but instead budgetted and approved the work on the 4 hours quoted.

You on the other hand as the professional should have contacted the homeowner as soon as you saw all the work necessary to make it comply and have given them a chance to accept or reject your work. That you did not do so and instead performed all the extra work is your problem and not the homeowner.

Hence if it was me I wouldn't pay all those extras and suggest that you obtain payment from the kitchen/bathroom installer.

This may seem harsh, but it's reality. No prior approval for work to be done then no payment.


Peter.

[TommyC]

I am a Builder (although not domestic), and so have a fair bit of experience with this sort of dilemma. I would say to you nev25, that you most definately should talk directly with the person whose going to pay your bill about the scope of work. As soon as it changes, talk to them again, especially considering you have to give a CES at the end of the job. Your average person has no understanding of the regulations that you must abide by so has no appreciation of why all that extra work HAD to be done, and is probably naturally suspicious anyway! (see other thread). I find that whenever I (or subbies on my behalf) do extra work without advising the client, payment becomes an issue.

[Ashes]

I am one of those consumers who would have absolutely no idea of the work involved or the regulations around electrical work. I'm not foolish enough to do anything more than change lightbulbs...

From a consumers point of view, I need a contractor who
- is willing to commit to a fair estimated cost (no hidden extras)
- can seperate labour costs and provide itemised (where practical) parts/materials costs
- is willing to commit to dates/times to do the work
- can specify payment terms/options
- can provide options, recommendations, experience and input into the project

In doing so, I am then more than happy to
- accept that I have a trained professional doing the work that needs to make a living like the rest of us and thus pay them appropriately
- accept variance claims for items that could not have been reasonably forseen
- accept additional costs for the "while you are here jobs"...
- offer tea/coffee/cold drinks, facilities in the house, power, water etc.
- lend a hand when/if requested

In business, and I'm not in a trade, the #1 rule is always to set delivery/cost expectations and rules around how the engagement works.

From what I read in this case, both the customer and contractor hadn't agreed terms and no formal process was in place for managing the scope of work or cost. Recovering this situation ammicably is going to difficult at best unless the customer is reasonable. I'm tipping a good deal of compromise by both parties is required here.

Good luck Nev in recovering the costs for your work, hope it works out for you. I suggest you start preparing a reasonably detailed invoice and hope for the best...

[SAISAY]

"So the question I ask is what you would do in my position bearing in mind 
business operating costs and a family to feed."  

First of all, I would not have accepted a person who is not in the trade to give a quote on my behalf.
Secondly, every time the homeowner asked for something else to be done I would have said "you realise this is not included in the original quote?"
Thirdly, if the homeowner was not willing to pay for the extra,, I would have said "sorry, no can do, I am not a monkey working for peanuts"
Fourthly I would tell the bathroom installer never to call me again if he was going to quote for me or estimate how long it is going to take me to do a job unseen, as I am far too busy to be somebody's fool.
Hope this answers your question.
Wolffie

[Ian Smith]

In this instance I was contacted by a kitchen /bathroom installer with the deal I would invoice the home owner.
This is a normal arrangement and I have no problem with this
But when I was originally contacted I was told it was around 4 hours work from experience when someone stated how long it usually means twice that.
Now understanding we have very stringent regulations we have to ahear to (Yes we can be fined and/or lose our licence if we don’t)

When I arrived on the job the kitchen installer said all I had to do is put power point in the cable has already been run.
Nothing was compliant so it was rip it out and re do..

....STOP right there !!..I re-read this post a couple of times and whilst, ultimately the home owners seem to have been contacted, they don't seem to have been consulted at the initial stage when the non-compliant wiring was "un-earthed" so to speak. As far as I can see a great deal of work was commenced without their agreement. Am I right??

Ian

[wheelinround]

everyone has said it all Nev

I walked away from a job rebuilding the front end of a Lamborigin as the owner who was a tradie and mech engineer to boot started to demand I cut corners and butcher.

I lost heaps of respect from another owner who I was going to much work restoring vehicles till I demand he go see the vehicle and what I was asked to do. I got an appology and they other guy was ousted out of a car club.

[RETIRED]

IMHO both this and the other thread should be moved to the "nothing to do with woodwork" forum.

I agree.