Celery Top Soundboard?

[jeffhigh]

Bob, it does not really impress me that someone is referred to as "the wizard" or "a master" and Rick Turner if you are going to drop names was not impressed with celery top as soundboard or bracing due to the density
Leaving out the name dropping, Celery top is not equivalent to spruce so why call it that? Appreciate it for what it is, It's a great timber but not the equivalent to spruce.

[woodturner777]

Jeff, I am not name dropping just naming the ones that made the comments.
You have you mind set we will leave it at that.

[jeffhigh]

And you are a master at second hand opinion Bob.
I am just not that impressed by that

[woodturner777]

P.S. Jeff, it was not me that made the comment Celery Top was the equivalent of spruce Gary made this comment please read my posts before replying.

Celery top is not equivalent to spruce so why call it that? Appreciate it for what it is, It's a great timber but not the equivalent to spruce.[/QUOTE]

[mandoman]

Well this discussion is starting to get a bit silly. Although I did not get excited about the sound of Celery Top in the one mandolin I made, I do know other Australian Luthiers who use it and like the results they get. John Akermann uses it in his violins, and I have seen it in at least 2 harps with good results. One harp maker was Pat Septon, the other I can't remember who it was. There are others who have also used it but I can't remember the details. So, there is no doubt that it can work well as a soundboard timber. Note that Bunya Pine is also heavier than Spruce, but Maton has told me it has made some of their best sounding guitars and Doug Eaton has told me that it sounds about the same as Spruce in his guitars. You never know unless you try. The instrument will probably sound different because of the different physical properties, and it is often a matter of personal taste whether you consider that to be better or not. Some Australian Luthiers do not like the results they get from King Billy Pine, yet my mandolins sound exceptional with the King Billy/Blackwood combination. The Aussie timbers have different physical properties than Spruce and you need to adjust your building technique to take that into account to get the best results. If one guitar maker gets excellent results from Celery Top then I would say it is certainly worth a second look because it obviously shows some potential. He must have done something right. Then again, Spruce is tried and proven and using a different timber with completely different physical properties is taking a risk that you may not be prepared to take. Being much heavier than Spruce I would suspect you would struggle to get as much volume out of it, but that says nothing about tone, but now I am starting to speculate so probably should shut up.

[jeffhigh]

Mandoman,
It is worth looking at the properties of some common soundboard woods and comparing them to what Celery top has to offer

Western red cedar 380kg/m3 Modulus of Elasticity 8,3 GPa
Sitka Spruce 430.................... 11
Bunya Pine 460 ......................13
Celery Top Pine 650 ................12

So compared to sitka, your wrc is lighter and a bit less stiff so you make it a little thicker to compensate and still end up with a lightweight top.
Your bunya is a little heavier, but 18% stiffer so the soundboard can be made a little thinner and still be an acceptable weight.
Then you get to the Celery top. 51% heavier and only 9% stiffer so you can't thin it much

So the end result is a soundboard nearly 50% heavier than a spruce board Which is pretty significant both for volume and high frequencies.

[Sebastiaan56]

Ive seen a violin with a Huon Pine soundboard which was fabulous. We all know that no two pieces of timber are created the same, there is always variation. This is where the craftsman has the edge over the factory. The name of the game in manufacturing is "squeeze the variation out of the process" for a craftsman its "how do I work with the material I have?"

I think its a bit too easy to write off a material from standardised data. Ive made Mandolin tops from Monterey Cypress. The instruments sounded like the flat tops I was emulating.

[mandoman]

Mmm, only 9% stiffer? I would be totally gob smacked if the piece I used in that one mandoolin was only 9% stiffer!

[jeffhigh]

Don't confuse hardness with stiffness. Celery top is nearly twice as hard as spruce but only slightly stiffer,
Also bear in mind that the original poster for this topic was asking about soundboards for classical and flamenco guitars where light soundboards are even more critical, than on steel string instruments

[mandoman]

Ah ha, sorry, that explains a lot, you are correct. I did not realise it was for a classical guitar.

I am certainly not confusing hardness for stiffness. That Celery Top mandolin top was really really stiff (and hard, and heavy), but unfortuately it appears it was one of my early instruments before I started measuring so all I have to rely on now is memory. Maybe another Celery Top mandolin top should be on the list of things to do. Anyway, as you do doubt realise, there is an awful lot of variation in stiffness within the one species, Spruce or whatever, so it is dangerous to rely on a single figure. An average figure is just that, an average, you need a standard deviation to get some idea of how much variation there is around the average, and how much overlap there is between species. That requires a lot of different pieces of wood and measurements.

I just remembered that Gillian Alcock recently used Celery Top for a hammered dulcimer baseboard. She usually uses King Billy for the soundboard and Douglas Fir for the baseboard, and Celery Top was a complete unkown for her. I had a pretty good play around of that instrument and thought it was probably the best sounding dulcimer she has made. Different sound from what she gets from a Douglas Fir baseboard, but very nice indeed (and she agrees). Lovely sweet clear and clean sound. So nice that I started wondering if it was feasible to replace the Fir baseboard with Celery Top on the dulcimer she made for me (unfortuately not).

[woodturner777]

mandoman, no need to apologize read below.
Jeff I was not going to answer this thread till tonigh as I have only just got home after a long day, I was in the bush at 5.30 am this morning, but my blood is boiling.
Tell me where in this thread where I have said celery top for a classical or flamenco guitar, as far as I am concerned my comment was celery top as a sound board the instruments Gary built are not classical or flamenco.
Sebastiaan comments the difference between a factory built instrument and an instrument built by a craftsman who knows how to work with the materail he has at hand. in otherwords by some one that knows what they are doing.
If I supply my customers with perfectly clear quarter sawn boards they should be able to do the rest. without all this mubo Jumbo weight, stiffness hardness Etc.
One well know Luthier told me if you know what you are doing you can work it.
This same well know luthier, who's name I can not use as you will tell me I am name dropping, and you reckon he said that celery top would not work as it was too dense has also asked me to send him some celery top to try as a soundboard.
So as Neil and Noel commented in the other thread pull our heads in.
Think before you rush back and reply as I will have an answer. Cheers,Bob

Ah ha, sorry, that explains a lot, you are correct. I did not realise it was for a classical guitar.

I am certainly not confusing hardness for stiffness. That Celery Top mandolin top was really really stiff (and hard, and heavy), but unfortuately it appears it was one of my early instruments before I started measuring so all I have to rely on now is memory. Maybe another Celery Top mandolin top should be on the list of things to do. Anyway, as you do doubt realise, there is an awful lot of variation in stiffness within the one species, Spruce or whatever, so it is dangerous to rely on a single figure. An average figure is just that, an average, you need a standard deviation to get some idea of how much variation there is around the average, and how much overlap there is between species. That requires a lot of different pieces of wood and measurements.

I just remembered that Gillian Alcock recently used Celery Top for a hammered dulcimer baseboard. She usually uses King Billy for the soundboard and Douglas Fir for the baseboard, and Celery Top was a complete unkown for her. I had a pretty good play around of that instrument and thought it was probably the best sounding dulcimer she has made. Different sound from what she gets from a Douglas Fir baseboard, but very nice indeed (and she agrees). Lovely sweet clear and clean sound. So nice that I started wondering if it was feasible to replace the Fir baseboard with Celery Top on the dulcimer she made for me (unfortuately not).

[jeffhigh]

Bob ,
I was not talking to you, but to mandoman and referring to the original poster not to any of your comments so turn of the heat on your blood

[Groggy]

Gents, you need to move on and leave the animosity behind. It isn't helping this thread or doing yourselves any credit. If you must bicker then please take it to PMs.

Groggy
Moderator

[jeffhigh]

Mandoman, There is an interesting discussiom on the ANZLF about celery top for braces and soundboards, which I started before doing any independant research on it's physical properties.
Australian/New Zealand Luthiers Forum :: View topic - Celery top pine bracing?
Rick Turner participated at length and was very negative about it and what he says makes a lot of sense
So if you would like to read his own words, have a look.

[woodturner777]

Up till now Gary Rizzolo has built a Medium Jumbo full body and a Tenor Ukulele using celery top as the soundboard and last week just finished another Acoustic with celery top, I will post pictures soon. And I will get down on my hand & knees If I have to and beg Gary to let me do some sound clips as soon as possible and this I will do.
All I know is the sound of the instrument to me sounded beautiful.
And as I keep saying I am not a luthier, but I know my wood I have worked with it for 52 years on and off, been salvaging it on and off here in Tasmania since 1968.
And as for music and guitars brought up with going to see some of the best groups of all time live, but I will not say who they were as I don't want to name drop.
What I am saying with comment above with music and guitars is I do know what a good guitar sounds like as I have heard some of the best guitarist in the world play in my life time.
Cheers,Bob.
P.S. And to Mandoman, I just realized who you are, after checking your website.
Peter Coombe, Thanks for your help the other day when I phoned you to talk about King Billy as I do like to find out everything it is possible to find out about the timbers I offer to my Customers.Regards,Bob