Celery Top Soundboard?

[woodturner777]

G'Day Jeff,
We will move on from the celery top for now till I manage to come back with the sound clips and I will as soon as possible.
Now we will move on to King Billy what are you thoughts.?
As I have heard many comments from different luthiers and I will name a few but not all.
So lets leave it at that and dont call it name dropping as I do not change there words.
Rick Turners words very similar to western red cedar and the most promising Tasmanian Timber for a soundboard, I note a lot of luthiers quote more suitable for small body instruments.
Peter Coombe words in his humble opinion, one of the finest soundboard timbers that grows upon this earth, it makes beautiful sweet clear sounding mandolins that many musicians prefer over the best Spruce topped instruments.
I have a waiting list for King Billy including customers in the states and canada where there is more spruce than you can poke a stick at.
Cheers,Bob

[jeffhigh]

Only used it for one weissenborn soundboard, but have another in stock.
Beautiful timber, seems to make a nice responsive soundboard.
Treat it like western red cedar ie leave it a bit thicker, dont flex it crossgrain or it will split, and be careful of dents.
Overall I feel very positive towards it as a soundboard timber

[mandoman]

Jeffhigh that is an interesting discussion, thanks. The comment about Celery Top being floppy across the grain certainly does not fit my experience. The CT mando top I made was easily the stiffest across the grain mando top I have ever carved. So, one piece of wood does not tell you a lot. The next tree could be completely different. That discussion however, does tempt me to make a mandolin top from Pinus crapiata though. I have a piece that might just work and not look too ugly. Represents about .0001% of what I have seen at Bunnings and even then will need to be a 3 piece top. Dreadful stuff. I used it for a dividing wall in my workshop, and it was impossible to get anything straight. I was wondering how the builders cope with this crap and when I mentioned it to my builder he said he lines up the pieces so they all bend in the same direction, then nobody notices that the wall is actually boomerang shaped! The treated stuff they all use down here on the far south coast of NSW because of the rampant termites is even worse than the untreated. My new house and the rest of the workshop is steel frame so is straight.

I don't think CT will tempt me to use it as a brace wood.

All this discussion seems to be centered around guitars. I am a dumbo when it comes to guitars, so better shup up and you other folks go for it. CT does work quite well in other instruments, and that was the point I was trying to make, but seem to have been side tracked.

No probs Bob. Glad to be of help. Send me an email if you would like any more info.

[mandoman]

Re King Billy:

I have used King Billy quit a lot starting around 15 years ago. The first King Billy mandolin I made sounded so much better than any of the Cedar topped mandolins I had made that I have never used Cedar again. The earlier ones sounded lovely, but were lacking somewhat in volume. Play one of these with another instrument and they get drowned. This applied particularlly to the King Billy/Myrtle combination. Exquisite tone, but no volume. I have had the same sort of comments from other Aussie makers who have tried King Billy. I tried some different wood combinations, but Blackwood seemed to work the best with King Billy. Nowadays, the King Billy mandolins are louder than my Spruce instruments, and with excellent projection, but with similar tonal characteristics - i.e. sweet, clear and clean. It does not seem to respond very well to heavy picking, so if a customer is a heavy picker I would recommend a Spruce top. If you pick hard, then the sound seems to plateau and become distorted, but the instruments are very responsive so you really don't need to pick hard. Some people don't like the different sound, but many prefer the King Billy sound over Spruce, but as already mentioned, they do dent easily.

King Billy is completely different to any of the Spruce species I have used in that when you first string it up the instrument sounds somewhat bright and thin, particualrly the G string, but after about 8 weeks the sound undergoes a real transformation. The tone becomes richer and the bass thickens up. It is really wierd in that this change seems to happen almost overnight. You pick it up and go wow, this sounds a lot better all of a sudden. I have had identical mandolins except for the topwood side by side, and at first the Spruce topped mandolin will sound better, but after that 8 week period the position is reversed. The tone change is as big as the change that happens with Red Spruce, but it happens a lot quicker, and after 8 weeks it will continue to improve for years, but slowly. I had one customer who was about to put his new mandolin on ebay, but I told him to wait at least 8 weeks before making that decision. It never appeared on ebay. So, don't judge King Billy against a Spruce topped instrument until it has had some time to develop it's special sound.

Why my current King Billy mandolins project so much better than the early ones I am not really sure. There have been a few changes e.g. higher arch, bracing, but I am not really sure what has made the difference. If you use it, just don't be surprised if it sounds great, but is lacking in volume. It is really a matter of suck it and see, and work with it over a number of instruments to get the best out of it.

Gillian Alcock uses it in her Dulcimers. She used to use Cedar, but around 12 years ago I commissioned a dulcimer from her and I supplied most of the wood (King Billy and Blackwood). I wanted to convice her to try King Billy and that was the only way I could do it. After that dulcimer, as far as I am aware, she never used Cedar again. My dulcimer certainly does not have any problem with lack of volume, so Gillian nailed it on the first try.

That is about it in a nutshell.

[mandoman]

I have a waiting list for King Billy including customers in the states and canada where there is more spruce than you can poke a stick at.

So Bob, How did the USA and Canadian makers find out about King Billy?

Peter

[woodturner777]

Good morning Peter,
It is good to read your comments and Jeff's now we have got away from acting the fools.
I would like to forward some of your comments on to custumers if this is Ok with you.
As to your question how do customers in the U.S.A & Canada find me, well I have a very good website that I promote through forums Etc including this forum and I also have a good myspace website my website click on the banner Tasmanian Tonewoods at the top of the page in this forum.
this will take you straight to my website I also have some well know luthiers as customers who I look after with good service,who also pass my details on to friends, if I do not have what they want in stock they go on a waiting list as I will go out of my way to find it.
I love to see tasmanian timbers value added into musical instruments.
When you get the time to spare check out myspace site link below, Regards,Bob
Tasmanian Tone Woods on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads

[woodturner777]

Jeff, I know what you are saying about watch out for dents with King Billy as it dents very easy.
Interesting that you used it as a soundboard for a weissenborn as I have picked this as my first build that is happening very slowly, trying to find the spare time but I will get there.
What does it sound like as a top on the weissenborn.?
Cheers,Bob

Only used it for one weissenborn soundboard, but have another in stock.
Beautiful timber, seems to make a nice responsive soundboard.
Treat it like western red cedar ie leave it a bit thicker, dont flex it crossgrain or it will split, and be careful of dents.
Overall I feel very positive towards it as a soundboard timber

[mandoman]

Bob, you are welcome to use my comments. I have been an advocate for Aussie timbers for many years now as evidenced by my articles in JAAMIM.

Peter

[woodturner777]

Peter,
I know you promote Australian timbers well.
As I promote Tasmanian timbers and I believe had Stradivari who changed his name to the latin name Stratovarius been born in Tasmania instead of Italy the worlds finest instruments would have been built from tasmanian tonewoods, but it is happening now.
On another note Rick Turner did a couple of courses here in Tasmania build a mandolin, and a few including one he built for himself was from good old tasmanian eucalyptus and he found it impressive it had a good sound.
Regards,Bob

[jeffhigh]

Jeff, I know what you are saying about watch out for dents with King Billy as it dents very easy.
Interesting that you used it as a soundboard for a weissenborn as I have picked this as my first build that is happening very slowly, trying to find the spare time but I will get there.
What does it sound like as a top on the weissenborn.?
Cheers,Bob

Hard to put into words, and hard to compare cause I only have my blackwood top weiss to compare to and the neck on the KBP one is 2" longer and it is tuned 2 semitones lower. and the body is 3/4" deeper etc
But it just seems to have a quick and easy response and plenty of volume wheras the blackwood takes a heavier hand to get going.

[woodturner777]

Jeff,
Would you be able to post a couple of photos of your weissenborns.
I would be very interested in seeing them.Bob

[jeffhigh]

I think I did that already back in your build thread

[woodturner777]

Sorry Jeff, now I remember sorry about that.
Getting old.
Regards,Bob

[mandoman]

Bob

I have some good old Tassie Eucalypt sitting here ready for a one piece back. Big wide boards cut perfectly on the quarter. I read with interest the results others get with it since I need to decide what top to use with it. I gave up on Tassie Eucalyptus a few years ago because it just would not bend into a mandolin shape. Brittle and hard to bend on the hot pipe and a few choice words were said. Also there were problems with lots of small splits that drove me mad, but that back does have a really good ring to it so is quite promising. I played one of Joe Gallacher's guitars a few years ago that had what looked like an Ash back and it was one fine sounding guitar. Have got some better quality timber now so is worth a try again. So much to try, and so little time.

Peter

[woodturner777]

Jeff, I had a read through this whole post ANZLF
they got stuck into Rick Turner in that thread made our little discussion look like childs play

Mandoman, There is an interesting discussiom on the ANZLF about celery top for braces and soundboards, which I started before doing any independant research on it's physical properties.
Australian/New Zealand Luthiers Forum :: View topic - Celery top pine bracing?
Rick Turner participated at length and was very negative about it and what he says makes a lot of sense
So if you would like to read his own words, have a look.