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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    NW Coast, TAS
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    Default Celery Top Soundboard?

    Greetings all - Been bush for a few days and am thrilled to be bandsawing up some MDF for our new Classical Molds.

    As we are not sold on King Billy's stiffness along and across the grain for an instrument of this size - yes, we know it can work just looking for more punch than it can give - we are wondering if any of the wwf mates have used Celery and, if so, can we get some anecdotal smatterings (tone, speed, transient attack characteristics, etc.) on it vs. spruce?

    "Ta" in advance...
    -Riggsy
    Cheers,
    Riggsy

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Bagdad Tasmania
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    77
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    1,504

    Default Celery Top Soundboard

    Hi Riggsy,
    Density air dryed Kg M3 -646. Sound Velocity along grain 4823.
    I have had a few customers use it for a soundboard with good results.
    Cheers Bob

    Quote Originally Posted by highfieldtonewerks View Post
    Greetings all - Been bush for a few days and am thrilled to be bandsawing up some MDF for our new Classical Molds.

    As we are not sold on King Billy's stiffness along and across the grain for an instrument of this size - yes, we know it can work just looking for more punch than it can give - we are wondering if any of the wwf mates have used Celery and, if so, can we get some anecdotal smatterings (tone, speed, transient attack characteristics, etc.) on it vs. spruce?

    "Ta" in advance...
    -Riggsy

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    NW Coast, TAS
    Posts
    106

    Default

    Ta Bob - Have you heard any comments back from your customers on Celery vs Spruce vs King Billy?

    Any thoughts would be appreciated.

    Riggsy
    Cheers,
    Riggsy

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
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    Bagdad Tasmania
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    77
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    1,504

    Default Celery Top Soundboard

    Hi Riggsy, No comments back yet on Celery vs Spruce vs King Billy.
    Hopefully I will hear something this year and I will post comments.
    Cheers Bob

    Quote Originally Posted by highfieldtonewerks View Post
    Ta Bob - Have you heard any comments back from your customers on Celery vs Spruce vs King Billy?

    Any thoughts would be appreciated.

    Riggsy

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Adelaide Hills
    Age
    66
    Posts
    3,803

    Default

    I have King Billy and Celery Top in my tonewood stash along with Lutz, Englemann and Sitka spruce tops. The spruce is by far the stiffer wood and would be my preferred top wood.

    Ive built classicals with Sitka and Englemann and a 12 string with Lutz. So far the Lutz has been the best of the top woods by far.
    Whatever note you blow youre never more than a semitone away from the correct one....(Miles Davis)

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Bagdad Tasmania
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    Default Celery Top Soundboard

    G'Day Martin, Thank you for your comments.
    I have a few customers who over the past 2 years who have used both King Billy & Celery Top for sound boards, but as of yet I have had no feedback from them.
    Huon is another that a few luthiers have tried.
    Its each for his own. Rick Turner believes out of the 3 King Billy has the most potential. Celery top the jury is still out on, it is very dense and slow growing and very stable. its early days days yet on Australia timbers as tone wood.
    Cheers Bob


    Quote Originally Posted by kiwigeo View Post
    I have King Billy and Celery Top in my tonewood stash along with Lutz, Englemann and Sitka spruce tops. The spruce is by far the stiffer wood and would be my preferred top wood.

    Ive built classicals with Sitka and Englemann and a 12 string with Lutz. So far the Lutz has been the best of the top woods by far.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    489

    Default

    Hi,

    I don't have any experience with building acoustics, however I own an acoustic which I purchased which has a king billy pine top and blackwood back and sides. It sounds amazing, which is why I bought it. Has alot of volume for a 000 shape. 6 years on, unfortunately the bridge plate has begun to lift and bend the top. I am unsure if it is the glue on the bracing failing (likely), however I suspect it is also that the king billy isn't as stiff as traditional tops and requires a revised bracing design rather than the traditional one employed. Note this is purely from a players perspective, not a luthiers perspective.

    Cheers

    Peter

  9. #8
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    Oct 2005
    Location
    Bagdad Tasmania
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    Default Celery Top Soundboard

    Hi Peter,
    According to Peter Coombe who builds mandolings, King Billy is one of the best soundboard timbers that grows on this earth. He recommends that it is braced different, so this works with your theory, I am not a luthier but this looks to me the case with australian soundboard species the instrument has to be built different to instruments built with traditional species.
    Regards Bob

    Quote Originally Posted by peterbrown View Post
    Hi,

    I don't have any experience with building acoustics, however I own an acoustic which I purchased which has a king billy pine top and blackwood back and sides. It sounds amazing, which is why I bought it. Has alot of volume for a 000 shape. 6 years on, unfortunately the bridge plate has begun to lift and bend the top. I am unsure if it is the glue on the bracing failing (likely), however I suspect it is also that the king billy isn't as stiff as traditional tops and requires a revised bracing design rather than the traditional one employed. Note this is purely from a players perspective, not a luthiers perspective.

    Cheers

    Peter

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    NW Coast, TAS
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    106

    Default

    [Disclaimer: the following is a subjective opinion, no scientific testing has been done in our shop on these matters ;-p ]

    Picking up King Billy and flexing it across and along the grain, it is no where near as stiff as more traditional timbers. This being the case, it would need to be braced more beefily than would stiffer woods.

    Celery top on the other hand, is nearly as stiff - both across and along the grain - as the whack of Carpathian that we have stashed. As one of the most dense conifers in the world it is an appealing wood and we will probably have a go at it.

    Many have told us that King Billy and even Huon (hate the smell) are great for smaller instruments and at a recent guitar building school held out here in the sticks, one gentleman used Huon for a Classical Top with girder-like bracing and both the builder and the instructor have said that it sounds great.

    Oh well, build it... we shall, eventually. If we dont like it, the bandsaw beckons, ay?

    - Riggsy
    Cheers,
    Riggsy

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
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    Bagdad Tasmania
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    Default Celery Top Soundboard

    Kevin,
    Question have you built an instrument with King Billy as a soudboard.
    All the King billy I have heard about milled into soundboards has been crap.
    But if top quality King billy is used it should make an excellent soundboard.
    Cheers Bob


    Quote Originally Posted by highfieldtonewerks View Post
    [Disclaimer: the following is a subjective opinion, no scientific testing has been done in our shop on these matters ;-p ]

    Picking up King Billy and flexing it across and along the grain, it is no where near as stiff as more traditional timbers. This being the case, it would need to be braced more beefily than would stiffer woods.

    Celery top on the other hand, is nearly as stiff - both across and along the grain - as the whack of Carpathian that we have stashed. As one of the most dense conifers in the world it is an appealing wood and we will probably have a go at it.

    Many have told us that King Billy and even Huon (hate the smell) are great for smaller instruments and at a recent guitar building school held out here in the sticks, one gentleman used Huon for a Classical Top with girder-like bracing and both the builder and the instructor have said that it sounds great.

    Oh well, build it... we shall, eventually. If we dont like it, the bandsaw beckons, ay?

    - Riggsy

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    NW Coast, TAS
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    106

    Default

    Bob - No builds with native woods as tops to date. We are going to start with the Celery Top and maybe get ahold of your Mando-makin mate Pete to see what he thinks about the necessity of bracing King Billy a bit more robustly.

    Still setting up the shop so... as soon as we have the first one under way we will (maybe, depending on how quickly the rust gets knocked off these hands of mine) post some stuff here. Will be sure to PM you and let you know.

    Cheers,
    Riggsy
    Cheers,
    Riggsy

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Caves Beach, NSW
    Posts
    277

    Default

    The celery top is really rather dense for a soundboard,
    I have used it for a neck on a steel string acoustic, it is certainly strong and stiff enough, but a lot heavier than spruce,
    I have a current build with king billy, I basically treated it like I would WRC, left it a bit thicker rather than bracing heavy.

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Bega NSW
    Posts
    131

    Default

    Yes, for mandolins I believe that King Billy is one of the best soundboard timbers that grows on this earth, particularly when matched with Blackwood. Every single mandolin I have made from King Billy has been nice sounding, but some are truly outstanding. For guitars, dunno since I have never made a guitar. I would recommend that you use King Billy a bit thicker than Spruce and for carved top instruments such as a mandolin make the arch a bit higher. I don't brace them any different. King Billy is not as stiff along the grain as Spruce, so does not resist the pull of the strings as much as Spruce. King Billy can be rather floppy, but then again other pieces I have are just as stiff as Spruce across the grain, and these are the pieces I seek out since they seem to make louder and better sounding mandolins. The main problem is hidden knots, and that can drive you insane since some can be completely hidden, but when you carve the top it appears and can be quite ugly. I have used Celery Top in one mandolin and it does work, gives a mellow tone, but I did prefer a Spruce topped instrument I made at the same time so have not used it again. Celery Top is rather dense and heavy, but very stiff, or at least the piece I have is very stiff. Have not tried Huon yet, If I make another Celery Top mandolin I would carve it thinner.

    Peter
    Last edited by mandoman; 1st August 2009 at 07:28 PM. Reason: Typo

  15. #14
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    Bagdad Tasmania
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    Default Celery Top Soundboard

    Peter, After listening to luthiers and doing my own research internet Etc, plus talking alot for the past year or so, with Andrew Morrow who did a scholarship on Australian timbers suitable as tone woods.
    I have been told to forget the first metre of a king billy above ground level and then to get the section above that to where it starts to branch, this way we should avoid knots. Hopefully by the end of this year I should have feed back from a few customers.
    Cheers Bob

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Bega NSW
    Posts
    131

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    Bob

    I am glad someone has finally looked seriously at how to harvest King Billy for Luthiers. Most of the the King Billy I have is now over 10 years old, and when it was still available and I was buying, the suppliers had no idea, and didn't seem to care. When I told them quarter sawn and free of knots, they interpreted that as anything up to 45deg off vertical, and so much of it has small knots. That is useless to me because at 45deg it will be way too floppy across the grain, and people don't like to see knots in their music instruments. The result has been I have sold a lot of the King Billy I bought, or it is still sitting in the shed and I wonder what to do with it. Fortunately it makes very good linings so won't be wasted, but I have more than a lifetime supply of lining wood! However there has been enough good wood to make some exceptionally nice sounding mandolins. Some do have small knots, but I try and hide them under the fingerboard, but that is not always possible, so a lot of work has ended up in the fireplace which is very frustrating.

    Peter

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