best sail-and-oar camp cruiser for me

[seefdublew]

I am quite new to the world of boats (other than canoes) so please bear with me. I have decided to take on a boatbuilding project for the next couple of years. I am interested in building a sail-and-oar open boat capable of camp cruising. I have already benefited from a lot of excellent advice on this forum, and I wonder if you would all be kind enough to offer your opinion on what the best boat for someone like me might be.

I am not a small chap: 6’-4” and about 250 pounds. I would like to be able to row and sail single-handed, but more often with a crew of two. It would be good if the boat could accommodate an occasional crew of four (me, my girlfriend, her young son, and a very bouncy Labradoodle) for overnight trips. I intend to daysail on Minnesota lakes, with annual, extended trips on the Lake Superior Water Trail. The boat should be easily trailerable as it will likely make the overland trip to my girlfriend’s beach cabin on Prince Edward Island. I have a bit of woodworking experience, and while I do have considerable patience for learning new skills, I do not want to take on a needlessly complex project. I have access to CAD modeling programs and a large CNC machine, if I choose to use them. Aesthetically, I’m a bit of a minimalist, and you’ll have to forgive me if my comments seem overly concerned with the appearance of the boat: I am an architect (building, not naval) and suffer from a hungry eye. I should also say that not only am I a neophyte builder, I am also relatively new to both sailing and rowing. I am learning both, though, and plan on carrying on so that I will have good confidence on inland lakes by the time I manage to launch this boat.

The boats that I have considered so far are Iain Oughtred’s Ness Yawl and Arctic Tern, Francois Vivier’s Seil 18, John Welsford’s Walkabout, and Don Kurylko’s Alaska. Here are a few of my initial thoughts on each:

• Ness Yawl and Arctic Tern: I find a lot to like here. The boats obviously have beautiful lines, with honest, straightforward construction. I’m comforted by the popularity of these boats and the amount of information available to builders. My only hesitation is that I find these boats overly romantic – even though I truly appreciate Mr. Oughtred’s skill in adapting historical precedents. (I’m not clear on the rowing/sailing differences between the two boats, so I would appreciate any advice on that front. I do admire the more graceful turn of the Tern’s six-plank construction.)
• Seil 18: This seems to be a very able performer under oar and sail. Aesthetically, I put this boat on the opposite end of the spectrum from Mr. Oughtred’s: while handsome, the pram shape lacks the liveliness of the Ness and Tern. I very much like the expansive space afforded by the clever sleeping board arrangement. There is less information available to builders, but I understand that M. Vivier is quite responsive and generous in replying to inquiries.
• Walkabout: This was the first boat I came across when starting my research, but I am slightly less intrigued now than I was. The construction seems less elegant that that of several of the other boats on my list, and I find the design a bit clunky.
• Alaska: I have always had a very soft spot for the elegance of Whitehalls, so I find this an extremely beautiful boat. I wonder, though, if it is as able under sail as the others. The interior appointments, including the sleeping boards, and available boom tent, would seem to make this quite a comfortable cruiser.

That’s as far as I’ve come. Please, feel free to be as brutal in dissecting my opinions as you care to be; I am nothing if not thick-skinned, especially when venturing into areas where I have so little knowledge. Thank you very much for your time and consideration.

[Daddles]

I am quite new to the world of boats (other than canoes) so please bear with me.

To me, this says you can't sail ... very well (neither can I dammit).

To crew a boat with 5 people ... no, the labrador is worth two so that makes it SIX people oh okay, 5 people ie 4 humans and the dog ... you need a lot of room and once boats start stretching past 15', things start getting big in a hurry and boats get a lot harder to build.

I was looking at a similar situation to you some years back. I too love Iain O's work, and worked out fairly quickly (and was advised thus) that the Ness Yawl is too small for the job, the Caledonian Yawl is what you should be looking at ... and that's a big boat on land.

Mate, I would suggest you lower your sights a little. Build something simple in the 12-15' range. This will be an achievable goat but will restrict the size of the crew somewhat. However, it will give you something to use while you build the big boat for the family camping trips.

One suggestion would be Mik's Goat Island Skiff. Simple and fast to build, gives you an excellent grounding in boat building, you could play with your CNC gear to your heart's content and I have been assured that you can learn to sail in the things plus go weely weely fast Get that on the water, and you and two or three others, certainly the lab, can go sailing for day trips, go stupid when just playing off the beach and which will serve well as a second boat when you finish the big boat.

There are others in that range of style, purpose and build level too, it's just a matter of looking about.

I'm someone who started in this boat building game with similar intentions to yours, and someone who was advised to build a GIS and rejected it because it wasn't the nice, planked boat I wanted, and someone who has built a few boats and has yet to achieve that initial aim I got it wrong - I should have built the GIS. If it weren't for the added baggage of a half built boat in the shed (two actually), I'd be very tempted to build a GIS just to get me sailing properly ... though with Sixpence (the 14 footer you see in my avatar) filling the shed, I'll probably build a PDR as a companion/sail trainer.

The beauty of the GIS and others like her, is that they are reasonably quick and easy to build ... yet we see people take two years to build them. Does that tell you something? Start building something bigger or more complicated (and anything Welsford is complicated, don't let the advertising fool you), and you could become one of those who starts and doesn't finish. Get something on the water and working, then use that success to fuel your bigger plans. If the boat you build first complements the bigger one planned, you wind up with boating choice, not a spare boat that never gets used.

The other thing about actually having a boat (canoes don't count in this case because they are different), is that you discover how you'll actually use it as opposed to how you want to use it and they are not always the same thing.

Make sense? Of course not, this is boat building, if it makes sense you've missed something screamingly obvious

Richard

ps when posting, use the default font and text size, your last post is horribly hard to read because on my computer, the text is rather small.

[seefdublew]

Thanks for such a well-considered response, Richard -- I truly appreciate you taking the time. Just to clarify: it's three people total, plus the dog, and even that for only short daytrips and the perhaps the occasional overnighter. Most of the time, it will just be me and a friend, in which case I think the Caledonian Yawl is too big a boat.

In any case, excellent points all around. There's much to be said for building something small and simple first, if for no other reason than to sharpen skills that are particular to boatbuilding (I'm thinking mainly of epoxy, with which I have no experience). I have actually considered doing just about exactly what you suggest, and I've even looked at the GIS with that in mind. I'll give it some more consideration based on your input. Thank you!

(And thanks for the tip about the font -- I'm not sure how that happened.)

[Daddles]

It's about time I went back over Iain's list of boats. The big problem is that he keeps redesigning them which changes their use slightly - for example, if I remember rightly, the first Ness Yawl would be a good choice for me because I like rowing but he fattened it out to suit people who preferred sailing (might have the wrong boat there, I'm dreadful with names).

Richard
you could shoot the Labrador and get a Jack Russel - much smaller but just as much hassle

[rob540]

I think you are enjoying the search, and that's a bonus. It seems inevitable, especially for people who want to make something that is as lovely to look upon as it is to use, that they (we) go through cycles of preference, orders of priority and design choice. There are so many points of departure in boat design and I easily find charming examples from every one, in every size.

Richard mentioned the Goat Island Skiff. You mentioned three others, and they all come from completely different sources of evolution and history, and yet we set them off, one against the other. I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all, it's just amazing. For example, the skiffs from a hard grafting working man's sort of background have a simple utilitarian charm that is not only beautiful but economical in line and dollar. Other beautiful boats come from a tradition of expensive playthings, and little versions of these give us the lines and the dreams without quite the budgets. I'm building a boat that evolved out of the push for faster recreational boats before everything became so specialized, expensive and silly that ordinary people didn't bother any more. Having nearly finished that, I'm looking for something really simple and probably from a working tradition. By knowing what tradition I want to explore, it sort of filters out whole categories of options, and that makes the search easier, harder and more enjoyable....I think..

My point is that given all the good advice Richard has given, it's probably a helpful thing to sort out the tradition that you want to explore first. That'll help find an example of the right size and appearance and function. Racing? Working? Recreational? English? Contemporary? American?

Looking at it that way might make it easier to choose, for example, between Alaska and GIS. Quite different evolution and aesthetic. (I recognize that method is a big factor too, in that some designs are of a tradition but are done with modern methods.)

The other point Richard makes about size is the hardest one to swallow. I too would have been better to make the beach boat first then build a bigger one, but I guess a common thing that middle aged men suffer from is impatience, the need for immediate gratification because we might'n't be here for ever (after all) and we are used to making a big gesture rather than testing the water. (not that I'd be so rude as to imply that you were in any way middle aged or indeed mortal)

And welcome to the madhouse
Rob

[seefdublew]

Oughtred’s plans do take a bit of figuring to sort out, to be sure. I wonder if Nic Compton’s new book offers any helpful illumination on the evolution of his designs. And funny you should mention a Jack Russell, since I was ready to get a JRT when I met my girlfriend – who already had the Labradoodle. He convinced me quickly enough that another dog was not required. He’s a handful.

[Daddles]

Labradoodle
I read that as Labrador (see, told you the text was too small )
They're worse, at least a lab grows up and develops into a mere eating machine, labradoodles are puppies until some bloke in a black cape carrying a scythe taps them on the shoulder (and then has to lure them into the other life with food).

The search is half the fun. You'll find at least six designs that'll fit your shopping list perfectly ... and I've never been able to work out whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Richard

[seefdublew]

A fascinating response, Rob, thank you. I’ve pondered that exact notion of tradition myself, wondering if it would offer a clear direction. When I think about it from that point of view, I’m partial to working boats – functional, evolved designs that don’t rely on a particularly fine finish, or lose their appeal with a bit of wear. I also like the idea of drawing on a local vernacular; the closest precedent for what I’m looking for is probably a Mackinaw boat, but they’re more boat than I’m looking to take on. Looking a bit further back, this area was largely settled by Scandinavians, which could make a faering (maybe Oughtred’s Elfyn?) an appropriate choice from that perspective.

It’s all a lot to consider, but as you said, I’m enjoying the search.

[rob540]

Lovely idea. They are a big 18-20 footer though....double ender...Selway Fisher have some nice double enders and some nice hulls from working traditions on this page
http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm
and also maybe look up his 'double ender' page.


but also check for skiff and other types derived from working traditions:

http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISplan.html
http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/
http://www.campionboats.co.uk/index.html

[Daddles]

The other thing about Selway Fisher is that they have more options than shown on their site. For example, I looked at building one of their 18 footers that's shown as a stitch and glue, multi-chine boat. I didn't want stitch and glue, I wanted lapstrake so I dropped them a line and guess what, there was indeed a lapstrake version available.

Richard

[PAR]

I see some conflicts that you may wish to examine before continuing. The first is an honest assessment of your skill sets. Are you comfortable with tools, working wood into shapes other then straight sided boxes, are you a "problem solver", how about "fabrication" attempts in the past, etc.

These and other questions can save a you a considerable amount of grief and cash outlay, so truly honest answers are a must. Then ask your wife, as I suspect she'll likely have some input on your abilities as well.

If you get past this and still have a cloud of boat building curiosity, following around your every thought, (a common personality flaw among builders, you'll get use to it). Next the most important thing you can do, is decide what type of build or construction method you think you can handle.

You have shown an attraction to several different build types. After many decades of building (some of us learn harder then others) I'll recommend (strongly) that you avoid the traditional methods, such as carvel, lapstrake, etc. The level of skill necessary to build projects like these are very high and a considerable limiting factor.

I would think you're a glued lap, taped seam, strip plank or plywood over frame type. Ply over frame is much like traditional construction, with many pieces to make and install (frames, floors, etc.), but the planking is plywood, which saves some labor. Glued lap and taped seam (often referred to as stitch and glue) are usually very similar, with the exception being the planking is cut up into planks, with glued seams on the glued lap versions. Lastly is strip plank, which is quite user friendly for the novice builder.

Strip plank and glued lap produce round bilge hull forms, which most enjoy better then the hard chine designs. Single and multi chine designs can be easier to build (less planking pieces generally), with the accepted shape limitations.

Flat bottom, true taped seam builds will be easiest to build, but you'll have some hull shape limitations to live with. Glued lap strake is surprisingly easy and will offer a very traditional looking boat, without all the trouble of building one in a traditional fashion. Strip planking will offer the rounded shapes we love in boats, but without the pain or forcing wood to our curved will.

Do yourself a favor and flash the short list of design choices here before you make a decision (your current list is "all over the place"). Each design has "stuff" associated with the design. The peculiarities of each design can lead to difficulties for some novice builders and it's likely some one here will be familiar with these and can relay them to you.

I'm a four dog man, myself and wouldn't dare make light of your stylish mutt. Labradoodles are nice dogs and they do count as a full crew position aboard your boat. This means you're looking at a 16' boat as a minimum length, which provides the room you'll need. A well designed 16' taped seam, flat bottom build should take a reasonable person 300 hours to complete. A poorly designed taped seam boat can double this. Since you're a novice you should consider doubling everything anyway (again ask the wife, she'll know), but a diligent novice can build a simple, flat bottom taped seam boat in 400 - 450 hours.

My advise would be to make a list of the designs you've seen and note what you like and don't like about each. Compare this to a list of all the things you desire in a boat project. Eventually a third list will develop, which has the designs most suited to your needs. From this short list you can further refine you needs.

[seefdublew]

Thanks for the excellent summary of construction types, PAR. I'm familiar with all of them (only inasmuch as I've read a dozen books on boatbuilding over the years) but I agree that I should take a harder look at the particulars of each design to see which might be the best fit to my building skills, rather than just my intended use. I'm pretty comfortable with my woodworking abilities; I've done quite a bit of cabinetmaking and joinery, and I've built several chairs, two custom guitars, and lots of odds-and-ends. Problem-solving is a decided strength (figuring out how to put materials together is what I do all day) and I've found that challenging projects hold my interest far longer than simple ones. Having said that, though, I am not interested in taking on a project that is needlessly large or complex. I appreciate simple, workable designs for their elegance as much as their ease of construction, but there is a point at which simple becomes banal and uninteresting.

One of the books I've read is Iain Oughtred's "Clinker Plywood Boatbuilding Manual." I didn’t see anything there that seemed beyond my skills today: I've cut scarves, I've carved, I've bent wood. His book is one of the reasons I'm as interested as I am in his boats; also, his plans are apparently excellent and there's a large internet community surrounding his designs. I think I would be on a relatively well-worn path with the Ness Yawl, for example.

In any case, I'll do a bit more digging into the designs I've listed above with your advice in mind, and compare them more thoughtfully with my capabilities. Thanks very much for sharing your expertise.

[Daddles]

You'd be able to handle lapstrake mate. There are some tricks but they're overcomeable.

Another suggestion is to do a boat building school ... now. Why? Well, apart from the obvious one of picking up some new skills, you'll be do so on someone else's boat. A less publicised benefit is being in a room full of boat builders, a room that often has experienced boaties as well as novices, and just soaking up the ideas and enthusiasm. If you can find yourself a six month or longer course rather than an intense one week job, so much the better because it allows your thoughts to gell while still having access to that pool of information. Besides, it's fun.

Richard