So... engine oil vs chain oil

[InterTD6]

I'd like to know where there is any bar oil thats cheaper than engine oil, 'cause I've never seen it, if it was cheaper I'd use it for sure. But its got to beat $2.40 a Lt
regards inter

[weisyboy]

thats the way i see it.

i can get a 10l drum of diesel engine oil for $18.

only time i buy bar oil is if stihl haev one of tehre deals on where you get a free stubby holder

[errolc]

You'd need to ask around like i did here...find out where local loggers get their's by the drum, they don't all get it direct from the oil companies.

I get mine 20ltrs a time but the shop sells it from their 44gal drum by the litr...the local Stihl shop here sells 4ltr packs for about $35...rediculous...but thats business I suppose

Consider the level of cling protection bar oil gives on larger saws...equates the same to smaller saws...adjust your oiler to suit your wood and save the environment...after a bit you'll get to know your saw and how much to wind the oiler in or out. You'll use a fair bit less bar oil for the same level of lubrication than you would in motor oil...so there's a saving there on its own.

The woods I cut aren't gummy at all but some logs that are saturated wet need a little more than dry clean soft wood...other woods are dusty and sort of gritty need more oil.

I have a couple of older model Dolmars I use on the fairly hard woods because they're torquier & rev quite a bit slower which I find easier on chains in the hard going and in the end I'd say they're a bit faster cutting overall as a result...and they sound like big saws should too.

So...horses for courses really

[BobL]

The woods I cut aren't gummy at all but some logs that are saturated wet need a little more than dry clean soft wood...other woods are dusty and sort of gritty need more oil.

That's interesting - I would expect soaking wet sawdust to repel oil, instead you're saying it needs oil? OTOH that is entirely consistent with direct water cooling of bar and chain experiments I ran a couple of years back - it needed more oil otherwise the bar and chain would wear more.

A big problem we can run across here is stressed trees that have soaked up silica, no amount of oil helps. Some trees that appear really clean can be like cutting bark impregnated with fine sand, except you can't get rid of it. These logs just rip the tips of full chisel type chain.

I have a couple of older model Dolmars I use on the fairly hard woods because they're torquier & rev quite a bit slower which I find easier on chains in the hard going and in the end I'd say they're a bit faster cutting overall as a result...and they sound like big saws should too.

Slower revving saws need less oil because they have lower chains speed and lose less oil off the nose as the chain goes around. The centrifugal force is proportional to the square of the speed divided by the radius, so a 9000 rpm WOT saw generates half the centrifugal force of a 13000 rpm saw for the same size nose radius. This is probably why slower speed slabbers can easily get away with using engine oil.

[errolc]

Its not something I've really given much thought, rather simply reacted to the cutting of any particualr log...if the chain looks and feels dry cutting...and the bar is arting to lip...I adjust a little more oil...I've found you get a feel for how the chains cutting. I'm not talking about just the odd cut here or there...but you definitelt know after the first minute or so cutting in any particular log.

Same sort thing with using the older saws...I don't think their cutting has to do with the oiling...more the speed of the cutters...definitely feel when the cutters are setting in the wood through the cut...rather than just making dust...if you get my drift. Sort as if the cutter is just bouncing around in the cut...I've found the same with the 120 too...quite often I've found faster cutting by throttling off a bit in particular logs...the chips then typically peel out of the cut cleaner.

With the saturated wood...I think you've touched on it...that the free water in the cut is interferring or sort of flushing/expelling the oil from the bar/chain...my thinking with those gritty feeling woods is that more oil is helping to possibly flush the silica as you describe and keep it out, or at least build a bigger barrier between the bar & chain...now that you've mentioned it some of these same woods have proven very hard on my chisel edges.

That would also have to have something to do withsome of the hard woods I carve...being nice and easy on chisels, almost buttery and leave a nice clean glossy surface...while some other slabs in the past I've expected to be good have been disappointing.

One thing is for sure...all of the woods I cut, aren't kind on chizel chain...chipper is definitely the best for me where & when I can get it...the soft wood like Totara are good with semi-chisel when they're clean, but every log is different !

[BobL]

...quite often I've found faster cutting by throttling off a bit in particular logs...the chips then typically peel out of the cut cleaner.

That will be because max torque is usually developed at lower revs. Big logs are like the load slopes place on a motor vehicle. Its torque that enables the motor vehicle to sustain revs but at max revs there's usually less torque.

[Calm]

That will be because max torque is usually developed at lower revs. Big logs are like the load slopes place on a motor vehicle. Its torque that enables the motor vehicle to sustain revs but at max revs there's usually less torque.

Not sure about that one Bob - What errolc said was throttling off (less revs) sometimes cuts better - i think giving the cutters time to bite/dig in instead of "bouncing" across the top.

Yes less torque is normal at full revs but if the saw will pull full revs then max torque is not required.

If the saw is cutting well then applying weight (feed rate) and allowing revs to drop below full revs (while holding throttle fully open) will cut quicker (maximum torque)

There is a point that maximum cutting speed is achieved and this may not always be full revs but in other situations full revs will clear chips better so will achieve faster cuts

- clear as mud.

Cheers

[BobL]

Not sure about that one Bob - What errolc said was throttling off (less revs) sometimes cuts better - i think giving the cutters time to bite/dig in instead of "bouncing" across the top.

Humm, . . . I dunno if the cutters really need any time to bite. If the cutters are bouncing across the top then that sounds like there is something not right with the chain.
As long as a saw has enough torque a properly sharpened chain should be able to make good chips over a wide range of chain speeds. A modified big saw with a big sprocket that can pull 15k rpm (ie very high chain speed) with masses of torque should still be able to form good quality chips at full rpm up to a certain size cut.
The same chain can be put on an old slugger like an 070 with a smaller sprocket and it will still make good chips at it's max rpm (ie slow chain speed).

Yes less torque is normal at full revs but if the saw will pull full revs then max torque is not required.

Yep agree!

If the saw is cutting well then applying weight (feed rate) and allowing revs to drop below full revs (while holding throttle fully open) will cut quicker (maximum torque)

Yep - that's essentially the same as the previous statement

There is a point that maximum cutting speed is achieved and this may not always be full revs but in other situations full revs will clear chips better so will achieve faster cuts

- clear as mud.

not quite as murky as mud.

[robduca]

While reading this i just realised i have a heap of canola oil at work. Is canola ok to run in stead of bar oil? Either in my Husky 3120xp with 48" bar and my Husky 570 with a 24" bar..

Just want to make sure before i use it.

Thanks

Rob Duca

[BobL]

While reading this i just realised i have a heap of canola oil at work. Is canola ok to run in stead of bar oil? Either in my Husky 3120xp with 48" bar and my Husky 570 with a 24" bar..
Just want to make sure before i use it.

Canola oil is sometimes used as the base oil for "veggie bar oil" , the other base material they use in biodegrable bar oil is animal fat or tallow. Basically all they do with the base is add a tackifier and sometimes they add water and a detergent because of the following.

The reason biodegradable oil is not used more commonly is that in cold climates and over time Canola based oil can solidfy and totally gum up your oiler ! However, in Australia this should not be a problem unless maybe you live in the Victorian/NSW/Tassie highlands.

if you run Canola neat you will need to run more oil as it is not as sticky as bar oil and a lot will get lost off at the nose but this should be fine for the 3120 which can deliver a very large amount of oil anyway. I dunno about the 570.

You can add a tackifier to canola but that stuff is expensive but maybe you don't need very much of it to get it up to the same point as basic bar oil.

I've run bar oil in the saw and canola in the Aux oiler. It does not need to be tacky for the Aux oiler because the delivery point is on the cutting side of the bar so it does not have to travel around the nose to get into the action zone. Currently I buy canola on special whenever I can find it but it's still ~$3.50 a litre, I would be very interested to find a cheap bulk source for Canola - are you able to sell any of your oil?

One of the main reasons I want to eventually switch to non-mineral bar oil is my wife wants to use the sawdust I make in her horse stable.

[Travis Edwards]

Honestly I only use bar oil, If I could get it I would use shell rockdrill oil.I used to work for a shell distributor in my teens and we used to sell it as bar oil to all the pro fellers in the area. It is a clean colourless oil which is VERRRRRY tacky and your bar and chain are very cool after a tank of fuel and oil, and it was cheap. I can tell you now if you are using ATF you are trying to kill yourself. The stuff is highly toxic and even half a dozen drops on a cat is enough to kill it!!! (that is not a joke!!!) (got some local ferals try some in a bowl of milk!) and used motor oil is HIGHLY carcinogenic. Can't believe you started this thread sigidi. I personally run my saws at the point where I will have approx 10 percent of a tank of oil left when the fuel runs out. I find that this ensures ample lubrication of the bar and guarantees that I will not run out of oil before I run out of fuel. As for fuel oil mixes I only use quality lube such as castrol or stihl, if running mineral oil I have found that I get the best performance at between 33 and 38 to 1, with semi synthetic or full synthetic I run between 40 and 50 to 1 depending on what I am cutting and what the environment is throwing at us.

Lately I have been using gulf western super tak chain bar oil because it is available locally for around 22 to 24 dollars for a 4 or 5 litre container, However I believe my chain and bar run hotter than with the stihl oil I have used previously. It is quite tacky but I dont believe that it cools as well as the stihl/castrol oil. I feel it is a lot better than motor oil but still needs better cooling capacity.

I find the scale of heat displays how well your lube is working.

Motor oil, After 1 tank cant touch the bar without enduring instantaneous blistering burns

Gulf western supertak, after 1 tank can touch the bar without burning yourself if touched for short period i.e. 8 to 10 seconds.

stihl bar oil or rockdrill oil, you know it is hot but generally will not burn you and will cool fairly quickly.

This will vary according to chain tension, sharpness and the wood you are cutting of course. I usually only cut HARD timbers however sometimes they are green and other times they are dry. Personally I find green timber Can be more demanding on lubrication than Dry timber due to the fact that it is often more resinous and sappy (especially redgum.) cut some recently that was guite green and found it really gummed the chain up despite good lube, chain was red, no black or silver showing any where. Any how thats my 2 bobs worth

[Krunchie]

Not sure about that one Bob - What errolc said was throttling off (less revs) sometimes cuts better - i think giving the cutters time to bite/dig in instead of "bouncing" across the top.

Yes less torque is normal at full revs but if the saw will pull full revs then max torque is not required.

If the saw is cutting well then applying weight (feed rate) and allowing revs to drop below full revs (while holding throttle fully open) will cut quicker (maximum torque)

There is a point that maximum cutting speed is achieved and this may not always be full revs but in other situations full revs will clear chips better so will achieve faster cuts

- clear as mud.

Cheers

I was told once by an old fella (that was a bad pun naughty boy) that using a chainsaw at full noise to cut some thing was like asking a shovel to do the same thing HIS point was that it will just wear it out ie. bigger saw, bigger bar, less speed, get better at filling and remember the rakers.

[Travis Edwards]

In regards to the revs/speed of cut thing. I often find that I only roughly 3/4 squeeze the throttle trigger and will generally cut as fast as at full throttle and find it cuts more "comfortably" and if the going gets a bit tough or the revs start to drop due to loading the saw up I simply squeeze the throttle a little harder. I also seem to get exceptional service from my saws both in chain life and in powerhead life. I find if your chain is nicely sharpened that it will feed nicely at 80% revs and you can feel when it goes off and will then not cut as well even at full revs.

[Travis Edwards]

If I can find my saw doctoring books I will scan the pages about maximum cutting speed and all the formulas about where it becomes pointless speeding a chain up because at a certain point it does not have time to bite without increasing the pitch of your cutters and depth of your rakers. These formulas are what made stihl settle on 7 tooth sprockets for their saws in the 3/8 chain range.

[InterTD6]

For me it comes down to the economics, using my ms660 for a week solid, cross cutting & ripping I will use 30 lt of fuel & 12 lt of oil for the bar. By not using bar oil at $2 a lt more I could buy a new bar every 6 weeks of use, which I don't, I just have a saving. Bars & chains get hot but untill the point where smoke starts appearing off the chain there isn't a problem, keeping the chain sharp, bar rails square & correct groove width has the greatest effect on bar life rather than what oil you run.
regards inter