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  1. #1
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    Thumbs up Decent Woodwork Plans

    I just visited a site siggested by Mr Ozwinner called www.woodworkingplanfinder.com/ . When I arrived there I was not surprised to find that they wanted my credit card number if I wanted there poxy plans. I then noticed a link called free plans so I clicked it only to find two items that would have been so simple to make that you wouldn't of needed plans and anyway, you wouldn't have wasted your time on them. Then I clicked on a link called WW techniques and to my disbelief thay wanted to charge you for them to!! Technique is something that should be shared between all of us, so we can do a good job and get maximum satisfaction from doing what we love with mistakes occuring as little as possible, share and share alike I say. Then I realised that that this site was run by Wood Magazine, blokes from the States trying to make a buck from people that don't know where to get free plans. Now if that is what you want, go to Google and type free woodworking plans and on the first page of the search there is a link to a google site that has 21700 free WW plans, sure there is some crappola there to, but atleast it's free crappola and if you sort through them you can find some real gems.
    The front page has the alphabet and you just click on the letter that you want to go to. eg. T for Table, Coffee. You'll get the hang of it. There is also an add beside the alphabet for a place in the states called Pops Unfinished Furniture and if you check that out you can get hunreds of ideas. There's no plans there, just hundreds of photos of some real classy household furniture that this place sells and all can be enlarged and printed.
    Not meaning to offend you Mr Ozwinner I know that you were just trying to share something with us all that you thought was worthwhile I just hate people charging for something that should be free, so what are you waiting for, go check it out!

    Clint

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Hmm. I am not convinced that all plans should be free. Fair enough for simple plans for pieces that could easily enough be made without a plan at all. But for more complex ones, a lot of work goes into designing and drawing the plans and in providing instructions on how to construct the piece. Is Hellacopter arguing that authors should not be paid for writing a book?

    I have been happy enough to share plans for jigs with forum members for free; but I also do my best to attempt to get them published for a fee. And I charge a fee for my rocker plans, because I consider them well worth the money. To produce them, I had to purchase CAD software and learn how to use it. Without the plans, it would be very hard to make a rocker - you would probably have to spend time and money building a prototype instead.

    I do not subscribe to the idea that intellectual property is fair game and that piracy is somehow morally justified.

    Rocker

  4. #3
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    I totally agree with you Rocker. Having said that I believe that we also need a page for plans that are REALLY free. This would get UBeaut a lot more visitors and also be a valuable resource for the board.

    Maybe a poll on this would be a good idea, ..... better still just go ahead and do it.
    Bob Willson
    The term 'grammar nazi' was invented to make people, who don't know their grammar, feel OK about being uneducated.

  5. #4
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    Default

    I agree with Rocker too but!!!
    Even authors face the situation where their works eventually fall into public domain where one can access them. This is not the case with these plans. How can a plan for a table that was originally fabricated a couple of hundred years ago - still be the property of someone who took a little time to put the detail on paper? One could suggest that they have stolen the design and are now profiting from their immoral act!!
    The fact that I may turn a platter on the lathe and someone decides it is his design - I make a side table that is my recollection of one that was my grandmother's and one of these supposed plan owners decide I'm using their plan. Please give me a break.
    What we create is the product of our knowledge, experience and our interpretation of surroundings.
    Having said that - I've bought plans for items that I particularly wanted so I accepted the hold these people have. I do not subscribe to the theft of someones intellectual property. Even more I detest the idea that many of these plans have been stolen and now offered as someone else's intellectual property.
    As a foot note the plans I bought gave me a design but the process for making the clock was written by someone who had never put a piece of timber through anything but a hole in a fence. I made it with the elements of structural integrity that was beyond the supposed owners capacity to comprehend. So if I publish the clock design with revised construction methods does that make it my property?
    OK I'm off the soapbox now!! :mad:
    Perhaps it is better to be irresponsible and right, than to be responsible and wrong.
    Winston Churchill

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnsey
    So if I publish the clock design with revised construction methods does that make it my property?
    I say YES IT DOES. publish and be damned.
    Bob Willson
    The term 'grammar nazi' was invented to make people, who don't know their grammar, feel OK about being uneducated.

  7. #6
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    Default Why use Plans?

    Like many other topics this is potentially controversial. There are as many reasons for doing woodwork as there are woodworkers. Some people gain pleasure from following plans and concentrate on method and technique rather than design. Others design and make their own projects and some are in between.

    I have not made any woodwork using other people’s formal plans. I am not suggesting that I am so wonderful that I can design/make anything but designing what I want to make I consider as part of the project, often an exciting part of the project.

    If I need to reproduce several identical items then I draw up my own plans and instructions to make the boring task of repetitive work take less time.

    The concept of a plan is like a can of worms. Some people would consider a piece of paper with diagrams, dimensions and notes as a plan. Others would consider they were working to a plan when the work isn’t the result of random attacks with random tools on a piece of timber. In other words a plan could be an idea in your head.

    For complex projects like a rocking chair, I would weigh up between purchasing a plan like Rockers or experimenting with prototypes and risking coming up with a second rate design. It would depend on how much time I had on my hands. For some people, the experimenting is fun, to others it is time wasting or perhaps they just aren’t interested – each to their own.

    Paying for plans – no problems. If the plans meet my requirements and I can justify the price then I would happily pay. Like others have said, if someone has put effort into documenting a process and that documentation is professional then they should be rewarded for their efforts. Of course whose idea it was originally is a matter of discussion.

    - Wood Borer

  8. #7
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    Question

    Thanks for your support Bob - Christ knows I could use a few extra dollars.

    Point is the next person decides his method is even better - has greater experience and vision perhaps - seems to me that public domain is poorly defined - who owns what?? - third party needed my suggestion to develop the thing to it's new level - and to agree with hellacopter1's first post I for one would certainly like to see some regulation or change in the definitions on who owns what. See if you can get Little Johnny or Lunar Latham to add that to the FTA

    Just a thought - if you have supposed protected plans and you care to add comments to them to suggest another way to do some particular joints, mouldings, processes or the like - would a collective group such as this one be able to post them in a separate forum for the free use of any registered member who might like to use them?? :confused: :confused:
    Perhaps it is better to be irresponsible and right, than to be responsible and wrong.
    Winston Churchill

  9. #8
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    Do we have anybody on the forum who is willing to admit to being a lawyer?

    If so, can they define to any extent what the guidelines are for copywright? For instance, If I see a table and like the way that it looks, so I go home and from memory make a table (for sale) that is similar, then am I breaking any copywright laws?

    The table is essentially the same as the one I saw, but then I believe, that the table would also be similar to others that the maker of that table had also previously seen? Would anything be provable one way or another?
    Bob Willson
    The term 'grammar nazi' was invented to make people, who don't know their grammar, feel OK about being uneducated.

  10. #9
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    Default

    it all comes down to proof - if you as the originator of the original plans can prove to a court that person x stole your info and changed bits of it so its slightly diffenret then published for profit you're on a winner.

    correct me if im wrong here but I remember a case where the bloke who was in credence clearwater revival was not allowed to publish music for some reason and in the meantime someone had bought the copyright to his old songs from CCR. when he was again allowed to write and publish he did so and was promptly sued by the then owner of his original music - he had to PROVE that "this was his style" and he didnt DERIVATE from the original music and thus breach copywrite! poor bastard! imagine having to prove your work is original and not related to your original originals!

    frigging lawyers - shoot 'em all!

    If you make it - sell it - if you can. do unto others as you would they would do unto you and the world would be a much better place!

    Cheers
    Zed

  11. #10
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    Default

    Bob, a case in point was raised on The Inventors ABC Show the other night.
    An Aussie guy invented and patented starting blocks made from timber and steel - the "authorities" said they were a cheating device , and banned them.
    So a guy in the yewnightedstatesofmerica re-patented them made from aluminium, and I would love a 5% share of the business.
    Kind regards
    Termite

  12. #11
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    Zed

    You mention only published for profit. What about published for no profit? This is still taking potential profit from the original publisher.
    Bob Willson
    The term 'grammar nazi' was invented to make people, who don't know their grammar, feel OK about being uneducated.

  13. #12
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    Bob,

    When there was a thread on copyright recently, I did a litlle research on the matter. As I understand it, (and I am not a lawyer, so this is just my summary of what I have read), you cannot claim copyright to a style, only to a particular design, which you must register, if you want to claim it as yours. Thus, for instance, Sam Maloof cannot sue me for making a rocker which is reminiscent of his design, since, in detail, my design is radically different from his, using different joinery and having an upholstered seat, rather than a solid-wood one. If you made a table which was a copy made from memory, you would merely be copying a style, not a design.

    My feeling is that it would be very hard to sucessfully sue someone for breach of copyright in relation to a piece of furniture unless it could be established that it was an exact copy. Even if the design owner managed to establish that, I doubt if he would be able to recover sufficient damages to make such a prosecution worthwhile.

    Rocker

  14. #13
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    OK, well there you go then Rocker, it's open slather.

    Anybody want to buy some rocking chairs that are highly reminiscent and evocative of those that are made by a certain member of this BB.
    Bob Willson
    The term 'grammar nazi' was invented to make people, who don't know their grammar, feel OK about being uneducated.

  15. #14
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zed
    frigging lawyers - shoot 'em all!

    Cheers
    "First thing we do is kill all the lawyers" - W. Shakespear

  16. #15
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    Angry

    So now that we have some definition how can anyone purport to sell Queen Anne, Mission, Shaker, Colonial, whatever style plans with a copyright statement or one that states that is an offence to make the unit for resale??
    Some even suggest that their plan is detailed from an original piece of furniture.

    From my perspective it is then public domain - surely it is in the interests of the craft to then make those details available in a forum where we can all learn from it not have to pay some parasitic entity for something that otherwise would reasonably be publicly available.

    Sorry - that hobby horse keeps getting under my feet - I'll put it away now.

    PS - Come on there must be a couple of legal officionados out there somewhere in the world that would jump on this??
    Perhaps it is better to be irresponsible and right, than to be responsible and wrong.
    Winston Churchill

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