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  1. #1
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    Default Pricing your work?

    I'm sitting around feeling sorry for myself after a hernia repair op and got to thinking of my last exhibition before Christmas.

    In the past I have been generally happy with my pricing and the level of sales, but at the last exhibition I received a comment that my pricing was too low and also a further comment that my pricing was too high . Bearing in mind that this was at a Art & Craft exhibition and not a market as such.

    I looked at the basis that Richard Raffan suggests which I think relates more appropriately to production turning.

    What other methods are used for pricing your work (other than what the market will bear) ??? Preferably something not as complex as RR's method.

    I have already done a search for this but could not find anything specific!
    Russell (aka Mulgabill)
    "It is as it is"

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Isn't Raffan's formula just 5x the cost of materials Russell?

    Anyway, it's tricky I agree. If I counted my time at sweatshop rates some bowls would still be too expensive. And some folk have no idea of the time involved and whinge regardless.

    I just had a prospective customer SMS and say she'd take a bowl she'd seen, it was going to be an ideal present for her Mum and she'd already told her Mum about it and how much was it? When I texted back the figure there was no reply. This particular bowl has something special and I add a premium for that. I'd rather it stayed on the shelf than underprice my work.

    Partly of course you take into account the market you're selling into. A simple salad bowl for a friend might be much the same work and cost overall as something a bit more stylish bought as a corporate gift but I price them very differently.
    Cheers, Ern

  4. #3
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    Default

    Thanks Ern,

    Maybe I'm thinking about this too much! The more I think the trickier it becomes.

    RR's method expounded in "Turn Bowl Design" goes something like this for a small bowl;
    Size (15cmx7.5cm) =112.5 divided by 6 = 18.75 mins
    @ hourly rate (say $40 p/h) = $9.38
    Plus cost of wood (say $15) = $24.38
    Plus margin for overheads, electricity, sanding, finishes etc (say 5%) = $1.22
    Total $26.82. to which a premium can be added to suit one's ego, market into which you are selling, etc.
    I feel this is on the low side and really does not transfer to items such as boxes, Salt and Pepper mills etc.
    Russell (aka Mulgabill)
    "It is as it is"

  5. #4
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    Default

    G`day what sort of finish would you have on a bowl that took you 18.75 mins to turn and finish?
    Mick

  6. #5
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    Default

    Exactly Mick! However if you are familiar with RR's work it is usually Linseed oil and bees wax and a little burnishing. Remember this is his suggested method of pricing a bowl not mine.
    I'm looking for possible alternatives.
    Russell (aka Mulgabill)
    "It is as it is"

  7. #6
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    Sep 2008
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    North Carolina, USA
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    Default

    I think you have to do unusual work and charge adequately to cover the extra time and better finishes.

    I do bowls and twig pots, with timber from my wood pile. I like crazy grain, crotches, spalted wood, roots, etc.

    I finish with tung oil, which takes coat after coat on softer wood or more absorbent areas of hard wood to get a sheen. I do this because of the durability and ease of renewing if dried or scuffed.

    I have been turning about 5 years and am slowly getting faster, and adding things like a die grinder to speed up sanding.

    It still takes 10 -15 hours over days or weeks on the more difficult bowls. About a year ago I started selling through a modestly prices craft shop. They take 40 %.

    From a financial viewpoint I think I could make more money spending the time picking aluminum cans off the road sides.

    The owner asks for larger bowls, so I am going in that direction. My things are priced $25 to $75 and over 14 months I have sold about 10 of the 20 placed. 10 original & then 10 added.

    I suspect I need a fancier gallery to carry the unusual pieces in order to bring higher prices to cover the extra time that it takes to produce them.

    I have seen nice pieces priced at several thousand dollars where the turner has studied with, and apprenticed to, this or that famous turner.

    I am curious as to how much this adds to the price that can be gotten for work.

    I won't stop turning, and don't have to make a living at it, but would like to maybe get a little back. To buy more turning toys, of course.

    I'd like to hear more Ideas on marketing, especially from this side of the pond.
    So much timber, so little time.

    Paul

  8. #7
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    Default love the piece, hate the price.

    Anyway, it's tricky I agree. If I counted my time at sweatshop rates some bowls would still be too expensive. And some folk have no idea of the time involved and whinge regardless.
    Yep that about sums it up. I have people love what I do etc etc, Then I ask them what would you pay, most answer with a price more in line with a mainland Chinese sweat shop. Even after I tell them how long it takes, patently I am stretching the truth and thier valuation is correct seems to be the reaction.
    Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working. — Pablo Picasso


  9. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulgabill View Post

    RR's method .....Size (15cmx7.5cm) ....Total $26.82.
    For simple 6" bowls I get about $35 and the gallery sells for about $60.

    I keep an accurate record of past prices and sales, on which I base my next lot of prices. Everything I make sells and until such time as I am making more than I can sell my prices will go up slightly each year to cover increasing costs and towards a vaguely reasonable return for my efforts...

    Larger and more sculptural pieces don't move as quickly, but they do attract attention and help with the sales of the smaller less elaborate pieces.
    .
    Stay sharp and stay safe!

    Neil



  10. #9
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilS View Post
    Larger and more sculptural pieces don't move as quickly, but they do attract attention and help with the sales of the smaller less elaborate pieces.
    .
    Nailed it Neil... just about all of the "big players" make their names from those epic pieces that get onto the magazine covers...but still do the less pricey pieces to make a living.
    ( "less pricey" is relative btw... a $300 bowl is less than a $15000 bowl)

    what if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

  11. #10
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    Oct 2007
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    Horsham Victoria
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    Default

    It should be simple: Labour hourly cost x time taken + materials and overheads. So what are labour costs? An apprentice electrician gets charged out at $55/hour so that's the bottom line. So why shouldn't a full time wood turner get at least $55/hour, or more. I know of a mechanic that charges his time at $150/hour. Wood turners have many many skills and they should be valued.

    The problem with wood turning is that the majority of those doing it are retired from full time work and wood turning as a hobby. They often don't really care what they sell their work for and often take a lot, lot longer to complete the work. I have seen pieces with a price tag on them that would barely cover the cost of the electricity.

    Fair enough you might say but the problem with this is that this type of pricing educates the public into thinking this is what wood turning is worth and significantly undermines the intrinsic worth of any piece, regardless of who does it.

    As a full time turner this is the environment in which I work and accept this, but it does make it hard. I overcome this by being quick and trying to come up with original ideas. I also have to find galleries that attract the right clientele (those with money). I'm sure I can do nothing to change this situation but would suggest any turner selling in a gallery or any other shop consider pricing their work properly, using some sort of realistic hourly rate (this should vary according to competency) and including costs and overheads. Timber isn't free, nor is sandpaper, finish, turning tools, electricity etc.

    To those selling at markets or to friends then do whatever.

    The bottom line is that we shouldn't de-value wood turning with ridiculously low price tags.

    I'll step off my soap-box now and head off up to the shed where I will perhaps consider putting my hourly rate up!

  12. #11
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    Default

    Followed some of the comments on this have typed up replies twice but am glad I held off to see Brendan's post.

    I agree pricing is always hard no matter what it is you do, Ern's mention of material cost x5 when the wood is FREE that = 0 no matter what the size even Raffan gets FREE wood.

    So far most of the pricing I see is based on full time workers rates as charged by companies, these figures include such as GST, holiday loading, penalty rates and payroll tax and super.

    So are you looking at a commercial/business price or hobby/craft price.

    I understand we all pay the same price for tools, finishes etc.

    Out of this are you paying the taxes

  13. #12
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    Default

    If you're self-employed you really should be adding about 25% to your direct labour cost to cover the costs of leave, super etc.

    I share Brendan's concern about hobbyists' underpricing and the way it potentially undermines the market for pro turners. Hobbyists' work can also mislead the public about standards of form and finish; some of the stuff sold in craft shops or at markets is really poor.
    Cheers, Ern

  14. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brendan stemp View Post

    The bottom line is that we shouldn't de-value wood turning with ridiculously low price tags.
    It's a perennial problem for professional artists/craftspeople.

    And retirees and hobbyists aren't the only culprits. Richard Raffan told me that his brother Simon who is a potter, woodturner and furniture maker gets complaints from other craftspeople in Tasmania for underpricing his work.

    Having been around art and craft for the last 45yrs can't say I have any solutions.

    One thing I like to do myself is to buy at least one exhibited piece of art or craft a year as my way of supporting my fellow artists and craftspeople. Nothing like putting a few high quality pieces amongst your own on the wall or shelf at home to get some perspective on your own work.

    If we could encourage all those woodturning enthusiasts to also become woodturning patrons we would have a very healthy woodturning market here in Australia.

    When are you having your next exhibition, Brendan? ....
    .
    Stay sharp and stay safe!

    Neil



  15. #14
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    Default

    Well, here we go again with the pricing issue...one of the most dastardly things to try to figure out. Why you say? I can tell you this, objectivity has no play in the equation. It is very much a subjective exercise!
    You can, of course, skulk around to other booths and see what Joe or Anna Mae is charging for garden dibbles and then go adjust your prices accordingly.
    Me, I have always gone by my gut instinct as to the price a piece should go for.
    and it works rather well...well, for me anyway.
    I once had a beautiful black walnut flat hollow form at the Art Museum of the South, Mobile, Alabama. Asking price was $115. Lots of interest, especially from one particular lady who came back at least 20 times during the course of the day to keep checking the piece out. It wound up that she did not buy at that time. Fast forward 1 year, same show and same piece still up for sale. Only now the price was up to $325. Wouldn't you know it, the same lady showed up at my booth and made a beeline straight for it. Then I heard her say "S*&t, I knew I should have bought the piece last year, but then cheerfully handed over the $325!
    Just goes to show that when it comes to pricing a ouija board or tarot cards might work better - go figure
    Cheers,
    Ed

    Do something that is stupid and fun today, then run like hell !!!

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsser View Post
    I share Brendan's concern about hobbyists' underpricing and the way it potentially undermines the market for pro turners. Hobbyists' work can also mislead the public about standards of form and finish; some of the stuff sold in craft shops or at markets is really poor.

    I agree Ern having been to many markets and galleries over the years in various locations from Sunshine Coast to Melbourne and SA.Trouble is these people are mostly the Pro's trying to make there $$ while the galleries or even tourist outlets suck them dry on high commissions with their best works.

    Hence if your selling through a gallery and they are charging or adding the commission say 40% does it really value add to the work or is it just like adding the gov's GST. Can a pro then state that their work is of that value. OR as any other item we buy it looses that much once it is in the owners hands.

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