waterstone hopper

[ryanarcher]

just an idea. made in the traditional japanese fashion. i really made it to learn how to lay out the compound angle of splay. everything was cut by hand. even the sliding dovetails and wedges.
-ryan

[burn]

Ryan,

Do you use the Veritas honing guide on your diamond stone? If so, have you been doing it for long?

Veritas believe it should be ok, but DMT suggest one risks wearing a flat spot on the honing guide's brass roller - making it useless.

Comments anyone else?

Regards
Burn

[ryanarcher]

Burn, I just use the diamond stone to flatten the water stones and lap the back of new chisels and plane blades.
-ryan

[burn]

I have a coarse diamond stone which I use in place of a grinder. For me a grinder is a device designed to turn bright (and not so bright) shiny steel, blue grey no matter what I do - yes, with Al Oxide wheels as well .... I think my problem is 10% cheap and crappy grinder, 90% crappy user. I wonder if the 'nice grinders' like Tomek or Sepparch would help .....

Burn

[markharrison]

The slow grinders are just that. Slow. Yes they will stop you bluing an iron and in fact, it would be impossible to do that.

However there is still a need for the regular grinder. If you've ever dropped a HNT Gordon HSS iron on to concrete and watched the edge shatter you will soon find out why you still need a high speed grinder. Oh, and by the way, yes I have done that: twice!

[ryanarcher]

Burn,
I have a tormek. I also sharpen to 10,000 grit on water stones and .5 micron on 3m micro-abrasive paper. I know people have strong feelings about the tormek (especially the people that don't own one). And it goes against all sharpening theory, but I can never get my tools as sharp manually as that machine can get them in 45 seconds. all i know is that it works. ???
-ry

[Termite]

Burn,
I know people have strong feelings about the tormek (especially the people that don't own one).

My brother in law has one, and I've tried it a few times, and I'm still not impressed.

[derekcohen]

I have a tormek. I also sharpen to 10,000 grit on water stones and .5 micron on 3m micro-abrasive paper. I know people have strong feelings about the tormek (especially the people that don't own one). And it goes against all sharpening theory, but I can never get my tools as sharp manually as that machine can get them in 45 seconds. all i know is that it works. ???

Hi Ryan

First off, that is a very nice "pond" or hopper in which to keep your waterstones.

But I will comment on a few items in the quote above:

(1) What type of waterstones do you use that go to 10000 grit? Are you aware that you are either doubling up by using .5 micron micro-abrasive paper, or perhaps even going backwards? (i.e. 10K grit should be about the same as .5 micron). What do you use before this (hopefully not the Tormek!)?

(2) With regards the use of a fast vs slow grinder, has everyone already forgotten about the belt sander jig I developed for grinding along with the honing disk? (see: http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...8&page=1&pp=15 and http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=16156)
The later version had a thorough working over at the recent sharpening workshop, and got through some heavy grinding (e.g. of scrub plane blades from scratch), as well as taking the honing several notches above a Tormek (in fact, honed to a smooth .5 microns).

(3) I am pleased that you are happy with the Tormek. It is a great machine for specific purposes, mainly chisels, but not for putting a finished hone on smoother plane blades. Yes it will provide a sharp edge, but it will not produce a sharp and smooth edge.

I am hoping that some of the workshop members will provide their own comments (reviews, if you will) of the belt sander grinder as the waterstone board since I (immodestly perhaps) believe that these two jigs can change the way you approach sharpening forever. Yes, I know that sounds grandiose, but I just want others to enjoy their woodworking as I do, and not miss out on these.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[LineLefty]

Thats my scrub blade derek is talking about there. Works a treat straight off the beltsandergrindersharpenerhoner. I scrubed away at a piece of pine on sunday morning unil remaining piece was thinner than the last shaving.............

To my untrained eyes the green crayon under power was a real winner. Seemed to make a real difference.

Derek, you seem to have mentioned a few times the difference between a sharp and smooth edge. But are they not one and the same thing?

[derekcohen]

Derek, you seem to have mentioned a few times the difference between a sharp and smooth edge. But are they not one and the same thing?

Hi Adam

A few years ago (it seems, but my memory may be faulty), I brought home a new Mujingfang smoother, opened up the package and plonked in the brand new blade. I had tested it for sharpness beforehand, and it had no difficulty paring end grain pine. It was Sharp. I set the plane for a very light cut, and ran it down a board. It peeled off gossamer shavings that you could see through. Just beautiful! Then I ran my hand over the face of the newly planed timber - and it was rough and anything but a finished surface. A close inspection of the blade explained all. The blade had been sharpened to about 600 grit (23 microns) at the factory. It was possible to see the deep scratches in the bevel, and it was these scratches that had transfered to the timber face.

The rule of honing (or sharpening) is that one removes the scratches left by the previous grit before moving onto the next (higher) medium. Otherwise the deeper scratches just remain.

The Tormek basically has two grits, the finish stone (1100 grit, about 9.5 micron) and a coarse stone of about 400 grit (I think) for grinding. Since it only uses one stone, what the user does is to "regrade" the stone surface - crushing the particles into either smaller or larger grit sizes. This leaves two problems. Firstly, there will be some stray larger particles that escape and contaminate the "fine" finishing stone, and these will leave deep scratches. Secondly, the best surface is only a 9.5 micron finish anyway. If you stopped using the Tormek at this point and went to waterstones, then you would be on the right path (because basically this is the same as going to a finishing waterstone from a rougher 1200 waterstone). But this is not done by most. What they do is use the leather wheel and honing paste to hone the blade straight off the finishing wheel. I have played around with this set up myself. The memory that stands out was an experience at the last Perth Wood Show, where the demonstrator of the Tormek passed over his best sharpened plane blade (one that had gone through the entire honing process), and when I ran my finger across the bevel I could feel the deep scratches were still there in spite of its mirror shine. Shining the surface with the honing paste does not remove the deep scratches.

The Tormek is a fine machine for chisels. These will come out of the process sharp - certainly sharp enough for any task. It is just the plane blades that I would not use.

I said the same thing about my belt sander grinder, althoiugh it produces a far superior finish to the Tormek. My belts are rated at 1300 grit but, because of the extra speed of the machine, the finish is probably closer to 5 microns (about a 4000 waterstone). This leaves a mirror shine, but you can still see fine scraches in the metal. I then hone on Veritas green rouge, again at speed, and this removes 90 percent of these fine scratches. The remainder are so fine (shallow). I have been comparing this finish with that of my 8000 waterstones, not for sharpness but for smoothness, and it is very, very close.

By contrast, if I only use my waterstones and hone to 8000 (which is 1.0 micron), I get a very fine, mirrored finish that is smooth and sharp. Taking this edge across the Honing Plate at this stage leaves the most lethally sharp edge imaginable!

The interesting thing is that a truly sharp blade does not feel sharp, but smooth to the touch (you only see the blood later!). A blade that feels sharp to the touch is doing so because of the serrations at the edge and, while it may cut well, these serrations also cut well, which is the story of the out-of-the box Mujingfang.

I hope you made it to the end of the story. Sleep well now.

Regards

Derek

ps Incidentally, I did more blades, including another scrub (for Jim's #4), after you left. Jim left it behind (collected it today) so I had a chance to try it out. It worked really nicely. So I have an idea how yours went.

[routermaniac]

nice pond ryan, that looks like a few hours of dovetailing fun ).


Damn it we had to start a sharpening thread again! It sounds like the Tormek is a great way to get usable sharp blades VERY quickly. For me it isnt the best option as I cannot justify that sort of money on a sharpening machine. But as we have said before, "if it aint broken dont fix it!", so Ryan if you're getting excellent results from the Tormek... well done!

[ryanarcher]

The tormek is a grinder, not a sharpener, and most do not understand this. I grind all of my tools on it, then move to water stones. the hollow grind means that it is easy to balance on the bevel and no honing jig (or micro bevel) is nessesary. I grind on the tormek, then sharpen on 1000, 3000, 10,000 waterstones progressively. I then hone with the tormek honing compound. in theory this is moving backwards, because it is labled as 6000 grit, but it provides a sharper tool, bar none. I only grind about every 15 or so sharpenings. since starting this thread i have omited the sandpaper. it's way too slow, and a waste to have to throw it away so often.

I have a line in to tormek right now asking what grit size the honing compound is in microns.
the tormek is also a great sollution for knives, and other woodworking tools that that have a difficult profile to sharpen (like turning tools)
It's funny to me that people get so proprietary about their sharpening technique. if it works for you, it works right?! no big deal.
-Ryan

[derekcohen]

Ryan

I think you are using your Tormek the correct way. I am sure that, with the waterstones, you get a great edge. As you say, many consider the Tormek to be a sharpener, and indeed this perception is fostered by the inclusion of a honing wheel.

I would be interested to know what micron the Tormek honing paste is rated at. Let us know.

You still haven't said what your 10000 watertone is.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ryanarcher]

it'a New Kent purchased from Japanesetools.com. i know you're a fan of the japan woodworker, but you'll find the customer service from japanesetools.com is great too. and btw the Tasai chisels are worth the price!
-Ryan

P.S. I just checked, and it looks as though they are only carrying shapton stones now. But i bet if you called Harrelson he could get a new kent for you(though i'm sure the shaptons are great too.) while you are at their site, be sure to click the Eastwind link at the top left hand corner- absolutely amazing carpentry!

derek, you'd probably also this site- aquastoneinc.com