Sharpening Shun Knives

[Too Many Clamps]

Hiya,

Just a few observations about sharpening Shun Japanese knives. In particular, the Shun high-carbon VG-10 single-bevel knives. I believe the sharpening instructions provided by Shun to be incorrect.

On a traditional hand-forged single-bevel Japanese knife, the cutting edge is the intersection of the flat single-bevel with the slightly hollow-ground back. There is no secondary bevel. Sharpening these knives is a matter of honing flat the single-bevel on a waterstone, and removing the burr by very very lightly honing the back of the knife flat to the stone. This is also the method suggested by Shun.

One of the reasons this system works on a hand-forged knife is that the single-bevel on these knives generally meets the back at around the 18-22deg range. But the Shun knifes are far thinner, so the angle formed by the back and the bevel is closer to 5deg. Therefore you must sharpen a small secondary bevel on the bevel side only.

Never be tempted to put a secondary bevel on the back, hollow-ground, side of the knife. You might as well buy a western knife if you do.

I have some advice for anyone that might use a steel to sharpen one of these knives. Go find the original box, wrap it up good and tight and send it back to where you got it because you are clearly too stupid to own a one. Quite obviously said tongue in cheek.

Cheers all.

[Pops]

Hi TMC,

What is it that Shun say about the sharpening process that is not correct? I don't have one, just interested.

We do like photos, a lot, feel free to show off your blades.

Cheers
Pops

[NeilS]

One of the reasons this system works on a hand-forged knife is that the single-bevel on these knives generally meets the back at around the 18-22deg range. But the Shun knifes are far thinner, so the angle formed by the back and the bevel is closer to 5deg. Therefore you must sharpen a small secondary bevel on the bevel side only.

.....

I have some advice for anyone that might use a steel to sharpen one of these knives. Go find the original box, wrap it up good and tight and send it back to where you got it

Measured my Shirataka deba and it has a 13° included angle. That feels about right for me, but I also sharpen my nakiri to about 12° and my santokus at about 14°, so I'm used to a thin blade, but 5° definitely sounds far too thin even for VG-10.

Have to agree about using steels on Japanese knives....

And for Pops, here is a pic of my Shirataka....

Attachment 161080

And, here is some info (slow to load) on the blacksmith here
.

[Pops]

Hi Neil,

Good man, thanks. Liked the blacsmith pages.

Cheers
Pops

[rsser]

How do you measure the short bevel on Western knives?

I've got a couple of widgets but with a bevel about 1-2mm long, and strong eye glasses, still can't see enough.

Just by the way, my ex-Shun Classic Santoku was Western in style, ie. a short bevel on each side.

[NeilS]

How do you measure the short bevel on Western knives?

I've got a couple of widgets but with a bevel about 1-2mm long, and strong eye glasses, still can't see enough.
.

Never measured the bevel angle on a western knife. Perhaps measure the long primary bevel angle, estimate the difference between the primary and secondary bevel by looking down along the bevel from the handle end, and add to primary bevel.

When I measure the included angle on a Japanese knife I draw a straight line in from the edge of a piece of paper. Then place the heel of the knife on the paper with one bevel aligned along the line and the tip of the knife at the edge of the paper. With the knife held in that position, draw a line along the other bevel. Remove the knife and extend the second line and measure the included angle with a protractor.... as clear as mud...
.

[rsser]

Umm, yes, but thanks anyway ;-}

I guess on Western knives the Lanksy kit apparatus can be clamped on, the bevel inked and the congruent angle read off the clamp. That's assuming that a bit of variation in the clamp depth position won't matter that much.

Or marking the knife at the clamp tip will provide repeatability if not angle knowledge.

[underfoot]

Oh oh...Iv'e been using my Shun 8" chef's knife for about 7 years, (best knife I've had IMO) it didn't come with instructions so I've been treating it like any other hard steel knife, leather strop, diamond steel, and the very occasional wet grind and stitched buff....have I been doing something wrong?..

[NeilS]

Oh oh...Iv'e been using my Shun 8" chef's knife for about 7 years, (best knife I've had IMO) it didn't come with instructions so I've been treating it like any other hard steel knife, leather strop, diamond steel, and the very occasional wet grind and stitched buff....have I been doing something wrong?..

Not if it's working for you.

VG10 steel used in Shun knives is one of the hardest stainless steels there are, but not as hard as Japanese high carbon steels. High carbon Japanese knives are hardened to 63RC or higher. Too hard and too brittle to have a steel run over them. Those steels don't deflect and therefore don't need to be steeled, like softer western knives, and if you did you risk breaking off their hard brittle edge.

As I say, if what you are doing works OK for you on the Shun, then keep doing it. But should you ever go to a harder edged knife I'd be cutting out the diamond steel.
.

[ravna]

Hi Guys
You have really whetted my appetite....have been thinking about buying Japanese knives for some time but as with all good tools ....buyer beware.
Would appreciate some pointers as to where to buy and what to look for.....have had a look on Ebay but not sure as to quality etc.

cheers

John M

[rsser]

I've bought knives and stones from this guy and while sometimes slow the prices and quality appear to be pretty good: click

As for what types of knife, depends on what kind of cooking prep you do.

Here's a classification: click

I use a Gyotoh, a Nakiri and a petty knife. Plus some Western French cooks knives for hacking pumpkins and the like.

[NZStu]

There is one place to buy japanese chefs knives: www.japanesechefsknife.com.

I have bought, I think, around 9 knives from there in total (6 for me, 3 for gifts). Service is second to none, and prices are the best I've seen anywhere.

Look for Hiromoto, Misono, Hattori and Masamoto. Pretty much everything he sells is excellent though.

[NeilS]

I recently purchased a first Japanese hand forged knife for someone and selected this one.

Why that style of knife? The Santoku is a double bevel general purpose knife that can be used for many cutting tasks in the kitchen and is a good starting point for 1st time western users.

Why VG10? - easy maintenance stainless cutting edge that will sharpen easily and stay reasonably sharp. Also easy maintenance stainless Damascus cladding.

Why Tanaka? - currently the lowest entry prices for this style of hand forged knife from a quality Japanese knife maker.

Why this supplier? - one of the few that is selling this particular entry level knife who I am aware of and fully confident in recommending.

Should you get and learn to love this knife and then wish to venture further, I'd be happy to give my opinion on your next purchase, I'm sure along with the others on the forum.

Qualifier: I have only had experience with purchasing about twenty Japanese knives and using knives from eight different makers, so there is much I don't know.

Warning: As you can see from the above and NZStu's post, purchasing that first Japanese knife can lead you into the vortex. After the knives comes the waterstones...
.

[ravna]

Thanks Ern and Stu...a starting point. Read somewhere in yours or others posts about the chalenges of single bevel knives, EG. getting cut...is this the case? Is there a knack to using this type of knife?

Cheers

John M

[ravna]

Thanks Niel....interesting, am already into the stone vortex, am waiting for Schtoo to finish his exercise.

Cheers

John M