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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsser View Post
    And just to respond to your last comment, yes, I despair of the 'knife nous' among others in my household.

    I've tried to explain the game to them but no luck.

    I see them use Western knives badly but can't get through to them.

    So while I maintain theirs mine are set aside. They accept that as the price of 'no-nags' ;-}
    I bought a nice Gyuto for my brother in law and his wife as a wedding present.


    Within a few months, she used it to cut open a pumpkin and snapped it in half.

    They're not getting another one.

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  3. #47
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    Hi Stu,

    That story is both sad and funny at the same time.

    In the days of my Wusthofs, I saw my other half, (now Ex) trying to unscrew phillips head screws with a succession of my knives. She continued despite my protestations, made me cry to see the tips broken off two knives. Still cringe when I look at them in the drawer.

    Now my Japanese knives are handled by only me. Visitors get the Barclay knives from Woolies to use.

    Cheers
    Pops

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by desert oak View Post
    I've got some king waterstones (300, 800, 1200, 6000) that I've used for chisels and plane blades and we also picked up a natural waterstone from a market in Japan. ... That said, I might just go with the 1200 then 6000 king stones to begin with.
    I've read the numerous thoughts on sharpening in these forums and I am now wondering after Neil's revelation whether I should invest in a Sigma or Shapton ceramic stone...or stick with the Kings for the time being....

    Any thoughts? (Though not wanting to open up a can of worms more suited to the sharpening forum)

  5. #49
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    You've nothing to lose by trying the Kings DO.

    If there are minor nicks, start with the #800.

    ....

    I succumbed to the temptation to get a smaller deba:

    Mikihisa ko-deba; 120mm blade, water quenched blue steel, hammered finish, RH bevel, hollow back. Amazing price.

    eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d

    The handle is bare wood and will get a couple of coats of danish oil.
    Cheers, Ern

  6. #50
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    Hi Ern,

    Nice !!! Did you have a particular kitchen task for this little beauty?

    Cheers
    Pops

  7. #51
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    Pops, yes, filleting small fish and chopping smaller hard veg like carrots.

    For carrots I've been using the Nakiri but that application risks nicking the edge given how fine it is.
    Cheers, Ern

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by desert oak View Post

    I've got some king waterstones (300, 800, 1200, 6000) that I've used for chisels and plane blades and we also picked up a natural waterstone from a market in Japan. I was hesitant that the natural stone could be too coarse but took few swipes over the weekend with the el cheapo knife and it doesn't seem to be. That said, I might just go with the 1200 then 6000 king stones to begin with.
    DO, since you have the Kings, go with them for now. As you already know from sharpening your woodworking tools with them they are soft and messy, but they will get the job done.

    Before you start sharpening any of your blades study them long and hard. Enjoy them! They will have been sharpened by master using the highest grade of natural waterstones the quality of which we rarely ever see outside of Japan. They will never be as beautiful again once we mere novices try to re-sharpen them...

    Next, inspect each blade under a strong light to see if any have a micro secondary bevel. If they do, it will only just be there, like half or quarter of mm wide. If necessary use some form of magnification to inspect the edge. I suggest you only resharpen the micro bevel if the blades already have them. That will be very quick as you only have to remove the smallest amount of metal to get a fresh edge. You will have to rework the primary bevels at some stage but that can wait until that is necessary.

    If you have no secondary micro bevels you will have to make a decision whether to introduce them or to maintain only a single primary bevel. There are pros and cons for going either way. A discussion for another time.

    When sharpening a secondary micro bevel, just use a pull stroke away from the edge. If you push into the stone as you do with the single bevel at the higher angles required for the micro bevel you are likely to cut into the stone to the detriment of both the stone and the blade edge. Very few strokes are required to freshen up a micro bevel. Remember to alternate sides to remove the burr. Be careful not to add a micro bevel to the non-bevel side of a single bevel knife. IMO, the non-bevel side of a single bevel knife should only be applied to the stone during the burr removal stage.

    If you go with the single primary bevel remember that the SS cladding is very much softer than the HC steel core. If you put even pressure across the width of the bevel while sharpening the softer SS will abrade faster and do two things. It will lower the included angle of the blade below that intended by the maker, which will make the hard and fragile cutting edge more vulnerable to chipping. It will also 'tip' the grinding surface away from the cutting edge so that you a chasing a sharp edge by removing more and more of the bevel away from the edge which in turn results in a more acute included angle. This needs to be compensated for by applying slightly more pressure to the cutting edge side of the bevel. The old felt pen trick applied over the whole bevel helps to give you feedback on how well you are managing this.

    If in doubt about how to present the blade to the stone have a look at a number of YouTube videos that are out there. There are slightly different techniques and some of them may work better for you than others. It is better to watch a video with a Japanese dialogue and just work out what is going on by watching it over and over than one with English made by someone who doesn't know what they are talking about (see my sig below... )

    One thing that won't be obvious by just watching the videos is the which hand is driving the knife, which one is guiding the knife and which ones are applying the pressure and where. Counter-intuitively for us westerners, as many things Japanese are for us, the fingers directly above the bevel over the stone are not only applying the downward pressure but they are also the primary driving force propelling the blade back and forwards. Those fingers should always be over the stone and move in small steps along the blade as new areas are sharpened. The primary role of the hand on the knife handle is to select the angle of the grind. In the case of a curved edged knife this also involves a raising and lowering of the handle (a slight rocking action) particularly towards the tip to follow the curved pathway of the bevel. That hand also temporarily takes over the propulsion of the blade when the finger tips are being moved to their new location. The handle hand can assist with some of the locomotion, particularly at the ends of each stoke as the direction is reversed but its primary role is managing the grind angle, like keeping slightly more pressure on the edge side of the bevel and following the curved path of the bevel on curved edge blades.

    And, to start with use much much slower strokes than you see the professionals using. That is until such time as your body knows what it is doing without you having to think about it all...

    Before commencing any sharpening do the slicing grease proof paper test so that you have a benchmark against which to judge whether you have improved the edge after you sharpening efforts.

    DO, begin by flattening the #6000 stone with a diamond plate, or whatever other method you use for doing that. A flat stone is v. important for the non-bevel side of single bevel knife. As your knives are still reasonably sharp I wouldn't go any coarser than that unless you have to remove any micro chips.

    The quickest way to judge a natural waterstone is to use it after the finest man made waterstone you have. Raise a slurry with a diamond plate. It will work quickly to begin with and then the longer you use the slurry the finer the grit will become. How fine will depend on the quality of the stone. Unlike synthetic waterstones it will leave a soft and hazy surface that is beneficial to the cutting performance and durability of the knife edge .

    On the Sigma or Shapton ceramic stones, my preference is for the Sigma Power Select II stones for knife sharpening, but your Kings will be fine to begin with. Just keep them flat, which needs to be done frequently, and will be good practice for when/if you get some Sigma PSII stones later on, which also need to be flattened more often than some other stones.

    Have fun

    PS - apologies for the long winded post.
    Last edited by NeilS; 27th October 2011 at 01:02 PM. Reason: PS
    Stay sharp and stay safe!

    Neil



  9. #53
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    Thanks for the 'wind' Neil. Great post. Greenie sent.

    I'd add that if there is that small 2ndary bevel just inking that is a good way to start.

    And Leonard Lee suggests in his book on sharpening that a bit of a convex bevel is not a bad thing on a knife; at a guess for brittle steel like the Jp blue, it would provide more support for the edge. Your thoughts?
    Cheers, Ern

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsser View Post

    And Leonard Lee suggests in his book on sharpening that a bit of a convex bevel is not a bad thing on a knife; at a guess for brittle steel like the Jp blue, it would provide more support for the edge. Your thoughts?
    Lee is sound on most sharpening matters.

    I understand that some Japanese knife smiths make some of their knives with a convex bevel, but all of the hand forged knives that I have bought from Japan have had a flat bevels. I think I have only seen one that came with a micro secondary bevel, but that is only from a sample size of about 20 knives from 10 smiths.

    I think that it is probably not the done thing for a knife smith to send off their knives with a micro secondary bevel. The decision to add one is maybe left to the user. It is a lot of work to remove it if the user wants only a primary bevel. The practice in Japan when you buy a quality knife from a knife retailer is for it to get its final sharpen there and then in the shop after purchase and before being boxed up and handed over. Perhaps the customer can ask for a micro bevel at that point. The only knife that I have seen that came with a secondary micro bevel was one that my son bought from a knife shop in Japan. They probably looked at him and thought they had better put a secondary bevel on it so he didn't chip the edge like westerners tend to do...

    I began experimenting recently with micro bevels, but it is too early to have an opinion on how effective and efficient they are compared to just a primary bevel. The micro bevel is quick to refresh but the primary bevel will take a fair bit of reworking when that is required.
    Stay sharp and stay safe!

    Neil



  11. #55
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    The last point is significant.

    My two debas have small secondary bevels; for strength obviously.
    Cheers, Ern

  12. #56
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    Neil, no need at all to apologise for your very considered post, it is very much appreciated.

    I've had a long look at the bevels on all our japanese knives and there are no secondary micro bevels...though our knives are all double bevelled knives which are ever so slightly convex (photo below). So at this point I'm thinking I will try and keep to the original slightly convex bevels.

    All that said, I'm going to take my time and not rush into it. The knives are still sharp enough for what we use them for and I get to consider them in their (almost) original state for bit longer (cue rolling of eyes from LOML).

    Very nice little deba Rsser...I keep leaving images of debas up on the computer screen in an attempt to subliminally convince my missus we need one....

  13. #57
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    How about this one for $300 from Chef's Knives To Go:




    Cheers, FF
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
    Jan-Feb 2019 Click to send me an email

  14. #58
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    Very, er, showy.

    Now what about a Japanese natural stone for sharpening; a mere snip at USD 20 grand. Click. Happy to do a user report if someone would like to shout me one.
    Cheers, Ern

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    How about this one for $300 from Chef's Knives To Go:




    Cheers, FF
    Sweet! I like how the grain in the handle matches the blade

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsser View Post
    Now what about a Japanese natural stone for sharpening; a mere snip at USD 20 grand. Click. Happy to do a user report if someone would like to shout me one.
    That's actually a good price...if the sword comes with it.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
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