My kit of Japanese knives ... WIP

[Gnickrapon]

Will do. The kit is almost finished. Knife wise, I'm only missing a Watanabe Gyuto and possibly in the future a Deba.

Almost got the sharpening kit finished as well. As it stands:

1 x King #300
1 x Naniwa #1500 XXL stone
1 x Naniwa #3000 Unsure of which type, but it was cheap and I'm not much of a fan.

and on the way

1 x Suehiro Rika #5000 from Stu. He's flat out at the moment so I'm not sure when that will get here.
1 x Atoma #400 once again from Stu
1 x Hishiboshi Karasu #9000 finishing stone from Japan tool. This one should be posted around the 25/03

That should pretty much do me for now....and a long time into the future. Unless I start to look at J-Nats Might let my wallet recover first

[US-Oz]

I first got attracted to Japanese knives by the superb Damascus figure; AFAIK it comes from multiple forge-welded laminations of steel types followed by grinding and acid treatment to reveal the 'grain'.

True Damascus figuring doesn't look like that, and isn't made like that. That's a simulacrum

The subject of what a true Damascus blade is was covered in the Scientific American (PDF)

[Tolmie]

Funny if any thing can get a man into the kitchen it has to be sharp and made from the finest japanese steel. Perhaps a sink made from the finest Damascus blue steel will have us doing the dishes.

[NeilS]

True Damascus figuring doesn't look like that, and isn't made like that. That's a simulacrum

The subject of what a true Damascus blade is was covered in the Scientific American (PDF)

Great article on the origins and composition Damascus steel, US-Oz.

However, it is more a case of misnomer than simulacrum.

The misnaming of multi-laminated Japanese blades by westerners as Damascus is where the confusion has come in.

The Japanese called their decorative patterning Mokume-gane (木目金), which roughly translates as 'wood grain metal' and is a tradition that is almost as old as Damascus sword making itself.

The misnaming has become so pervasive in the West that some Japanese retailers now translate Mokume-gane as Damascus when selling to westerners, but the Japanese blade smiths who are working in their own deep tradition do not claim to be 'simulating' Damascus steel.

Should there be a revival of Damascus steel making there will have to be some sorting out of the terminology, although from what I read of the process there won't be too many of us that can afford to buy a blade that has required 50 cycles of reheating and cooling at today's fuel prices.

As explained in the article, the advantages of Damascus steel is in;

"The carbide particles [that] are extremely hard, and it is

thought that the combination of these bands of hard steel
within a softer matrix of springier steel gives Damascus

weapons a hard cutting edge combined with a tough flexibility"

As I understand it, the Japanese blade smiths achieve the same outcome by laminating a thin layer of very hard steel, which forms the cutting edge, with a soft layer or layers of iron or stainless to provide a cushioning effect for the hard and brittle steel. This seems to me to be a more economical way of achieving the same outcome.

Neil

[US-Oz]

The Japanese called their decorative patterning Mokume-gane (木目金), which roughly translates as 'wood grain metal' and is a tradition that is almost as old as Damascus sword making itself.

Er .. not quite. From wikipedia article on Mokune-gane states that such blades were "first made in 17th-century Japan", whereas the true Damascus blade are so called because they were first encountered by Westerners during the Crusades (1000-1300AD), and probably date back much further (wikipedia states back to 300BC in India).

The misnaming has become so pervasive in the West that some Japanese retailers now translate Mokume-gane as Damascus when selling to westerners, but the Japanese blade smiths who are working in their own deep tradition do not claim to be 'simulating' Damascus steel.

I accept your point that this is a misnomer rather than a deliberate simulation on the part of the Japanese. But perhaps we should not perpetuate the confusion?

As explained in the article, the advantages of Damascus steel is in;

"The carbide particles [that] are extremely hard, and it is

thought that the combination of these bands of hard steel
within a softer matrix of springier steel gives Damascus

weapons a hard cutting edge combined with a tough flexibility"

As I understand it, the Japanese blade smiths achieve the same outcome by laminating a thin layer of very hard steel, which forms the cutting edge, with a soft layer or layers of iron or stainless to provide a cushioning effect for the hard and brittle steel. This seems to me to be a more economical way of achieving the same outcome.

A research team in Germany published a report in 2006 revealing nanowires and carbon nanotubes in a blade forged from Damascus steel, so the advantages and differences to the Japanese blades go further than this.

[NeilS]

Er .. not quite. From wikipedia article on Mokune-gane states that such blades were "first made in 17th-century Japan", whereas the true Damascus blade are so called because they were first encountered by Westerners during the Crusades (1000-1300AD), and probably date back much further (wikipedia states back to 300BC in India).

I stand corrected, US-Oz. I was going by the dates in the article you cited and didn't do my homework.

Neil

[pranayama]

A research team in Germany published a report in 2006 revealing nanowires and carbon nanotubes in a blade forged from Damascus steel, so the advantages and differences to the Japanese blades go further than this.

Do you have a link for this report? It would be very interesting to read it! If it is written in German that is fine with me.

[US-Oz]

Do you have a link for this report? It would be very interesting to read it! If it is written in German that is fine with me.

Materials: Carbon nanotubes in an ancient Damascus sabre | ReadCube Articles

Takes a while to open, but worth it

[rsser]

Here's some reading for your amusement gentlemen. The author doesn't know much about JP knives and it's offered for the absurdity of the knife standard some Yanks pursue:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/11/24/sharper

Neil, on further use of edges done with the Sigma #10k grit, with the stainless Nakirri there's a clear difference.

[NeilS]

Here's some reading for your amusement gentlemen. The author doesn't know much about JP knives and it's offered for the absurdity of the knife standard some Yanks pursue:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/11/24/sharper

Neil, on further use of edges done with the Sigma #10k grit, with the stainless Nakirri there's a clear difference.

Thanks Ern for posting the link to that article, which I found to be very interesting reading. I wouldn't have expected to see such an informed article in a non-specialised publication, but then we have become so used to the mediocracy of Murdoch publications down here.

Yes, the article is light on its coverage of traditional Japanese knife makers, but does provide some accurate coverage of the fundamental differences between Western and Japanese knives (eg on steeling) and it is good to get an update on where the upper end of the Western knife tradition is heading.

Descended as I am from Western blacksmiths (Welsh that go back four centuries), I am not prejudiced against a good Western blade, it's just that fewer of us are now butchering our own meat and for most of what we do now in our home kitchens the Japanese knives do a better job. For the occasional task that requires a tougher (ie less brittle) blade it is good to have a suitable Western blade available to do the job, like slicing up the Qld Blue pumpkins. And, most importantly, for when some family members and friends get into your kitchen!

Thanks also for the update on the Sigma #10K. I tend to find myself that the finer grits do give a more durable edge. Whether it is worth the extra expense is probably a matter of personal judgement. If anyone is thinking of venturing into this territory they might also like to consider the Hishiboshi, as well as the Sigma, which I have recently reviewed, but not in comparison to the Sigma #10K.

Hishiboshi karasu #9k synthetic-natural waterstone

Neil

[Sheets]

Er .. not quite. From wikipedia article on Mokune-gane states that such blades were "first made in 17th-century Japan", whereas the true Damascus blade are so called because they were first encountered by Westerners during the Crusades (1000-1300AD), and probably date back much further (wikipedia states back to 300BC in India).



I accept your point that this is a misnomer rather than a deliberate simulation on the part of the Japanese. But perhaps we should not perpetuate the confusion?


A research team in Germany published a report in 2006 revealing nanowires and carbon nanotubes in a blade forged from Damascus steel, so the advantages and differences to the Japanese blades go further than this.

Sorry I'm coming a bit late to this thread, but I have to jump in on a couple of points:

Perhaps the reason that Damascus steels faded out of existence, is because the "inferior" steel of the Europeans could kill just as well and was easier to produce? Although at the time, I'm sure the Crusaders fled in fear at the sight of silk scarves being sliced so easily (a skill obviously overlooked at Crusader school). Either that, or the invaders felt it was too inhumane to kill with such dull weapons. (No serious discussion expected by the preceding ).

But seriously, the Japanese method of layering/laminating steel has existed from at least the 7th century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amakuni, (there are extant museum examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kogarasu_Maru) coming to Japan from Korea or China (probably via India, but perhaps going the other way?) In any case, the Japanese refined the method until it became uniquely their own, as they did/do with the smelting of Tamahagane. This has remained relatively unchanged to the present day. Any reference to Japanese steels as Damascus or as damask/damascene is incorrect (at least with respect to swords - what they are doing with kitchen knives and tools is different again).

Modern attempts to re-create Damascus steel may have succeeded, but with a three century break, it likely remains a lost art.

[Sheets]

I stand corrected, US-Oz. I was going by the dates in the article you cited and didn't do my homework.

Neil

It wasn't a lack of homework, Neil - rather Wikipedia is often incorrect, inaccurate or incomplete.

[Des.K.]

Just a bit of perhaps useful info for anyone heading to Japan on a kitchen knife hunting expedition, and I thought this is probably the best thread to put it in.

SWMBO and I are currently in Kochi City in Shikoku (the smallest of Japan's four main islands). We've been wandering around Shikoku for the past few days having a good look at castles. There are quite a few castles here where the tenshu (central tower) wasn't totally destroyed after the Meiji Restoration. But that's not the point of this.

On our way to Kochi Castle, we discovered the Sunday markets not too far from Kochi Station. The market takes over one side of one of the main roads, and continues for quite a good distance. The stalls are mostly fruit, vegetables and fish, but there were also about four or five stalls I saw selling a huge range of kitchen knives.

I'm not into knives (I use an old one I bought in Japan roughly 25 years ago), and even if SWMBO had let me stop to look at them, they wouldn't have meant much to me. Plus it would have meant that I would have had to look at all the kanna and chisels they had in their shops, and there's the rest of the day gone. SWMBO was too smart to let that happen. But I've no doubt that the knife experts here would have fun.

Shikoku is probably not one of the first places people visiting Japan would go to, and Kochi City perhaps even less so, but if you happen to be passing through the island, and intend to visit Kochi, adding the Sunday markets to your itinerary might prove to be interesting. Unfortunately, I can't give any more info than that because I was dragged back as soon as I started to head over to look at the knives.

Des

[rsser]

You can trust a woodie to smell where there are edge tools Thanks for that info.

As an aside I was looking for whetstones as my son expressed an interest in sharpening his VG10 Nakiri and came across this set from Stu that includes a flattening plate: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...oducts_id=1668

[Sheets]

Shikoku is probably not one of the first places people visiting Japan would go to, and Kochi City perhaps even less so, but if you happen to be passing through the island, and intend to visit Kochi, adding the Sunday markets to your itinerary might prove to be interesting. Unfortunately, I can't give any more info than that because I was dragged back as soon as I started to head over to look at the knives.

Des

Right,... got it:

Visit japan - check,
Visit Shikoku - check,
Visit Kochi City (on a Sunday) - check,
Go alone - check.