Massive tonewood source right under our noses

[old_picker]

congrats on a very cool build[s]
no you dont need fancy timbers to build an excellent instrument
benedetto did similar years ago when he built an archtop out of scrap pallets
he said in his book the tone was as good as any of his primo models

[mandoman]

Well after as few weeks and a few final adjustments, this mandolin is sounding as good as or better than my primo instruments that have expensive European Spruce tops. It is undoubtedly one of the best sounding mandolins I have made, and it has surprised the heck out of me. So there is nothing wrong with radiata as far as the sound it produces is concerned. It is a fine sounding tonewood, as good as the best quality Spruce. Pity it is so ugly, but then beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and many people do listen more with their eyes than their ears. I don't particularly like making black tops because every scratch and speck of dust shows, so if I find any quarter sawn radiata that looks half decent I'm likely to buy it for the sound quality, not because it is cheap.

[old_picker]

so if I find any quarter sawn radiata that looks half decent I'm likely to buy it for the sound quality, not because it is cheap.

what has always intrigued me about radiata is the "tiiing" or "tonngg" sound you get when i drop a piece on the conccrete floor - i always thought hmmm i reckon that would be good for a top - there is plenty about and there is quality DAR clear radiata at matthews here in melbourne

it is a pain to sand though

[woodturner777]

congrats on a very cool build[s]
no you dont need fancy timbers to build an excellent instrument
benedetto did similar years ago when he built an archtop out of scrap pallets
he said in his book the tone was as good as any of his primo models

Bob Taylor, Taylor guitars also built a guitar from wood from a shipping pallet.
I also note that Peter made the comment that good straight grain wood tone is excellent, stands to reason a well know luthier who I have spent some time with said to me nice straight grain wood the sound waves travel in a straight line, where fiddleback or highly figured wood the sound waves have to travel in all directions makes sense, today I spent about 3 hours up at my shop with 3 of the band members with Stevie Nicks on her tour playing in Hobart tomorrow night, one of the guitarists who is also a luthier loved the plain straight grained blackwood but it was the fiddleback blackwood and highly figured woods that blow his mind and what was of the most interest, and Peter if you are interested in nice clean quarter saw Radata that you will not find much of, but if you are interested in nice clean quarter sawn Macrocarpa this there is no problems and you will find this better than Radata. Cheers Bob
Mistake made the luthier that I met yesterday that is touring with Stevie Nicks is the guitar Tech for Waddy Wachtel his name was John Taggart.
http://www.tagguitars.com

[Baz1000]

Slash pine, radiata, whatever you like to call it, is rubbish. When oregan became too expensive for construction back in the seventies, the substitute was hemlock from New Zealand. Then came slash pine et al.....rubbish.

These trees are lucky to see a diameter of 250 mm before they are felled and put through the mill. Slab cut, the chances of a quarter cut piece only comes from one cut either side of the heart as the process goes.

For tonewood? NEVER! Count the number of grain lines per inch. I'd be surprised if you would ever find a piece greater than ten or twelve per inch.

Carve a mando or violin top...... the tap tone would be an F (F for FAIL).

Sorry if this might burst your bubble, but to say we have unlimited tonewood right under our noses is just plain wrong.

[mandoman]

You have not burst the bubble. The vast majority of radiata certainly is rubbish, but what you are doing is what a lot of music instrument makers (and wood suppliers) do and that is judge a piece of wood by appearance. There is no relationship between stiffness and grain count, and that has been known for a long time. A wide grained piece of Spruce can be just as stiff or even stiffer than a fine grained piece. Gibson used very wide grained Spruce and hid it under a dark stain in many of their mandolins in the teens. There is nothing wrong with the sound of these mandolins, and I have heard some musicians state that they prefer the sound of the wide grained Spruce in these mandolins. Wide grained wood is not used for tops because it is ugly. Trevor calls his radiata guitar top the pajama striped top.

What I am trying to say is that the 0.1% of Radiata that is quarter sawn and not too heavy can make very good sounding instruments. I have the proof of that sitting in a mandolin case in my workshop, which you are welcome to come and play if you don't believe me. The unlimited tonewood supply thing was meant to be tongue in cheek, but 0.1% is a lot of wood.

The tap tone is NOT fail, and I (and Trevor Gore) have just proven it. I have the Chladni pattern pictures and frequency measurements that fall within the range I would expect from a piece of premium quality Spruce. When I tapped the carved mandolin top it could have been a piece of Spruce. I have to admit I was really surprised, but there is no doubt that It works as a topwood. It does sound slightly different, more like Red Spruce (the holy grail of topwoods!), but work it does. No doubt about it.

I am not advocating that we should start cutting radiata for music instruments, this whole exercise was to prove a point, but you seem to have missed the point.

[old_picker]

a brand new customer walks into the bar and starts swinging punches before he even introduces himself

[kamusur]

Your right Old Picker sure is the best way to start a fight, and i just love that idiom "when the student is ready the teacher will appear".

Merry Christmas to Everyone Members and friends alike


Steve

[IWieldTheSpade]

(in a day's time)

a brand new customer walks into the bar and starts swinging punches before he even introduces himself

I don't think I've witnessed many to be kicking and screaming when they enter, a friendly hello might be a better start. This topic seems to cause a bit of contention doesn't it?

I might have to give this a go, just to satisfy the curiosity of a pine instrument. How do you think it would suit for nylon strings, mandoman?

[mandoman]

I doubt whether it would work as well with nylon strings. Radiata is heavier, and you don't have as much energy to drive the top as with steel strings. The accepted wisdom for nylon stringed guitars is to make the top as light as possible. However, and I would direct this comment to Baz1000 as well, you don't know unless you try it.

[woodturner777]

Baz 1000, What is the real name.? I love it when new members join the forum and start saying to a well respected and knowledgeable luthier that being Peter Coombe Rubbish.
And I love Ray's comment a brand new customer walks into a bar and starts swinging punchs before he even introduces himself this is you to a T. please let me see photos of your builds, you would not happen to be the same guy a few weeks ago with a different user name that was having a go about Andrew Morrow.?
Now let me just say rubbish you don't know what your talking about, if you are kind enough to post a reply give your name and start again without being a smart Ars as this is a great forum and if Peter says it works it works, just like I once posted in this forum that Tasmanian celery top pine works well as a soundboard and a member in this forum says it will not work well I know it works and really well, dont knock unless you know what your talking about.
Merry Christmas & best wishes to all forum members for the New year.
Cheers Bob,

Slash pine, radiata, whatever you like to call it, is rubbish. When oregan became too expensive for construction back in the seventies, the substitute was hemlock from New Zealand. Then came slash pine et al.....rubbish.

These trees are lucky to see a diameter of 250 mm before they are felled and put through the mill. Slab cut, the chances of a quarter cut piece only comes from one cut either side of the heart as the process goes.

For tonewood? NEVER! Count the number of grain lines per inch. I'd be surprised if you would ever find a piece greater than ten or twelve per inch.

Carve a mando or violin top...... the tap tone would be an F (F for FAIL).

Sorry if this might burst your bubble, but to say we have unlimited tonewood right under our noses is just plain wrong.

[Baz1000]

Sorry if I struck a nerve. My name is Barry Guest and I've been making and giving my violins away to young players for many years. I made my first violin in 1980, after being mentored by John Godschall Johnson. I have not contributed to this forum before because I didn't know about it.

And I am not a smart ####, never have been and never will be. I'm just a journeyman who reckons radiata pine is unsuitable for stringed instruments. There is a reason that none of the tonewood suppliers sell even that .01% of it.

However, now that you qualify that the title of the thread was "tongue in cheek" and quantify the acceptable range of .01%, I must apologise for my opening rant. There are not many timbers on this earth you couldn't use for stringed instruments if those parameters governed the selection process.

[woodturner777]

Hello And Welcome Barry, I did not mean to call you a smart A..e.
I thought it was someone else who caused problems a few weeks back, I know you can build there is photos of one of your Violins in the gallery of my website once again sorry.
Regards Bob

Sorry if I struck a nerve. My name is Barry Guest and I've been making and giving my violins away to young players for many years. I made my first violin in 1980, after being mentored by John Godschall Johnson. I have not contributed to this forum before because I didn't know about it.

And I am not a smart ####, never have been and never will be. I'm just a journeyman who reckons radiata pine is unsuitable for stringed instruments. There is a reason that none of the tonewood suppliers sell even that .01% of it.

However, now that you qualify that the title of the thread was "tongue in cheek" and quantify the acceptable range of .01%, I must apologise for my opening rant. There are not many timbers on this earth you couldn't use for stringed instruments if those parameters governed the selection process.

[Baz1000]

Ah, Bob. How are you mate? Jeez, I must have come on strong to get a reaction like that. I suppose my passion for this game gets in the way at times.

[woodturner777]

I Am good Barry, No problems missunderstanding there for a minute.
As for Peters build it looks not too bad for Radiata and as I told him I don't think I will be rushed off my feet for requests to supply sets, but good of him for proving a point.
My best wishes to you for Christmas and the New year, best regards Bob

Ah, Bob. How are you mate? Jeez, I must have come on strong to get a reaction like that. I suppose my passion for this game gets in the way at times.