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  1. #16
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    Feb 2012
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    Sydney
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    Thanks for letting us know about your project.
    In my humble opinion, if you spend more than $2000 for the parts, it would be better off buying a second hand audiophile speaker unless you have the schematic and build procedures for the speaker that you want to build.

    It would be nice if you can build the sonus faber Amati.

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  3. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Brisbane
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    Value is really a subjective thing... but I take your point. Mind you if I was to produce speakers that were anywhere remotely close to their $45,000 a pair Amati's, spending $10k isn’t such a big deal.

    I couldn’t justify spending $45k on a pair of speakers (at least on my current salary), but I can easily justify spending 10 to produce 5 speakers.

    What does need to be considered is what happens if they don’t work as expected? What do I do with a whole bunch of drivers? Well I guess that is a calculated risk I just need to take.

    In a lot of ways it is probably a similar risk to the first set I built, $3k in the late 90’s is probably like $10k today, like for like.

    Anyway I have put a temporary hold on the build until I look into other driver combinations. I want to make sure I get the absolute best result possible, as it is still a lot of money regardless of if I can afford it or not.

    I have also been looking into a new box design, if you look at the initial design I was looking at putting the slices horizontal, but I am now working on a vertical design.

    Why the change you might ask? Well while the horizontal design gives me more options for the outside of speaker cabinet, it does restrict the chamber shape behind the front panel. If I use the horizontal design I am restricted to pretty much a set taper for the inside.

    If I go with a vertical stack I can design a very smooth curved area behind the speaker but the top and bottom suffer as a result and the outside of the cabinet is a little less curvy. I am speaking generically of course but you get the idea.

    The attached picture will give you a better idea of the direction I am heading. The rounding bit would get a bit of a workout on some of the square edges.

  4. #18
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    Dec 2011
    Location
    Brisbane
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    I could still incorporate a chamfer with the curved rear section, but it adds a level of complexity...Guess this isn’t so different from the horizontal design, just shifts some of the design aspects.

  5. #19
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    Dec 2011
    Location
    Brisbane
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    454

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    Been busy with SketchUp again....

    Still trying out different designs, but I quite like this one. Would be reasonably easy to make and very few jigs involved. No bottom driver yet as I have fully finished it.

  6. #20
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    Dec 2011
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    Brisbane
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    Spent some time looking into a completely different aspect of the cabinet build... I have been investigating active crossovers instead of the passive crossovers I was planning to use for this build.
    This in turn would mean that I wouldn’t need a separate cavity built into the cabinets for the passive crossovers (so as not to be part of the acoustic chamber), nor would I need to fabricate some clear panels to show off the crossover (high end cross over part actually look quite nice to the geek).
    It also opens up a whole new world of cabinet making since the crossovers are external, and all that needs to make its way inside the cabinet are the two wires for the driver, no consideration need to be given to getting the signal to each of the drivers from a single crossover point.
    But most importantly it would appear that the active crossover arrangement would allow much more flexibility in tuning out any cabinet problems that might result of a poor design.
    Cost obviously goes up with the additional amplifiers required, but I think it would be money well spent.
    Might even give the nautilus design that SawDustSniffer has been talking about a go...

  7. #21
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    Dec 2011
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    Brisbane
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrysin View Post
    "I won't know straight away because all the drivers will be brand new and green, so it will probably take about 100 hours of playing before they start to sound right."


    I hate to have to tell you, but there is no such thing as a GREEN driver. Nothing changes with a driver, have you not considered the more rational explanation that over time one's ears become accustomed to the new sound?
    I knew soon or later I would come across something that backed up what I heard. The following is from a website of a guy who has provided drivers to some of the biggest names in the industry... AudioTechnology

    Does Vas and fs change with usage or is this just a fairytale?
    You once manufactured a pair of custom-defined drivers for me (that perform excellently by the way !!!!!! ).
    When I fist installed them I broke them in, using a sweep generator at very low frequencies. I had the feeling that they slightly improved that way but I may also be waaaaaaay off.


    You are not way off!! The suspensions change a lot over time.

    When we measure a driver, it has been run in - not necessarily the drivers supplied to the customer, but at least the test driver made prior to the supplied drivers.

    When we run in the drivers, it is done with a relatively high wobble sinus tone around the expected resonance frequency (fs) and for

    approximately 24 hours. We know that there are companies that only run in their drivers for 1 hour, before measuring Thiele/Small data (T/S data).

    Our experience says, that the drivers change for weeks - even months, when playing, but the change after running for 24 hours, does not have any technical influence on the performance. An example:

    After 24 hours of running a driver has reached an fs that is lower, a Vas that is higher and a Qts that is also lower than the original "cold" driver.

    A simulation is made on the "run in" data and a nice frequency response curve is found. After ½ a year, the driver is taken out of the box that vas build according to the simulation program, and the T/S data are measured once again. We then find that fs and Qts has dropped further and the Vas is yet higher.

    But - the simulated frequency response curve, in the same box, does not change.

    We hereby conclude that: When a driver has been run in for 24 hours, the changes of the T/S data, do not have influence on the performance of the bass output of the driver in cabinet.

    You could also say: After 24 hours of running in a driver, there is a certain balance in the T/S parameters that stabilizes the bass performance of the driver in cabinet.

    Another thing is that the sound and performance of the drivers change for a long period of time. This is caused by softening of the moving parts and from small fractures in the glue joints, etc....

    A speaker is like a good wine: It gets better with time.

  8. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Far West Wimmera
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    63
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    I am not going to get involved in a discussion on running in speakers or differences in cables etc as I have about 5 mins before I leave for a 12 hr night shift, and I am not that argumentative.

    If anyone would like to follow up on any of these subjects a look at AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums - Powered by vBulletin would I imagine give you plenty to think about. There are many threads there about these subjects. I have not looked at many of them myself. My comments are based on the "tone" from reading one. Here we go again attitude etc.

    Most interested in the build as well as I am considering building myself.

    Dean

  9. #23
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    Dec 2011
    Location
    Brisbane
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    Thanks for the link Dean... I recently joined a dedicated DIY speaker builder forum. Funny but I always thought there was a right and wrong way to do things, but it would seem that all the experts have their own unique way of defining nirvana. In fact the more I read, the more I come to realise that sound is purely subjective.

    Everybody's ears / brain interprets the sound as they hear it, so what is right? If you like the tinny sound of metal drivers and the frequency response is perfectly flat and technically perfect, it is still going to sound terrible to someone like me who likes the more natural tones of hard paper drivers. Research suggests that polypropelene drivers might actually give the most natural tones, even though paper gives a destinct edge to the sound that I like.

    Anyway I degress from the build thread which I started...

    I have now comitted to going active and have ordered a DCN28 digital crossover from Ground Sound Ground Sound

    I will probably hold off ordering the additional amplifiers until I have purchased drivers, but this will now be a 4 way system as a result of the purchase.

    Now looking at some Accuton and AudioTechnology drivers instead of the Scan-Speak drivers I started the project with in mind.

  10. #24
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    Dec 2011
    Location
    Brisbane
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    Like your missus with an empty credit card this thing is starting to get a bit out of control....

    Just purchased a matched set of Raal 140-15D AM ribbon tweeters for the project which is going to alter the box design once again. http://www.stonessoundstudio.com.au/stone/Raal/raal_14015d_ribbon_tweeter.htm

    Clearly I need to see what direction I am going in with drivers before trying to go much further.

    Will probably now need to go MTMWW (mid - tweeter - mid - woofer - woofer) now to match the SPL of the tweeter.

  11. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Western Australia
    Posts
    153

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    Forgive me if this is a little off topic but you should remember that the 'law of diminishing returns' applies to audio equipment as well as most other things. after a certain point the audible difference in sound reproduction will be so small as to be negligable.
    Where is that magic point?
    Good queston and it will probably elicit much discussion but Id hazard a guess at around $4000 for speakers and $2000 amps. Im not familiar with the other componants so Ill let others chip in if they will.
    "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"

  12. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Rockingham, Western Australia
    Age
    90
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    147

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    Quote Originally Posted by hybridfiat View Post
    Forgive me if this is a little off topic but you should remember that the 'law of diminishing returns' applies to audio equipment as well as most other things. after a certain point the audible difference in sound reproduction will be so small as to be negligable.
    Where is that magic point?
    Good queston and it will probably elicit much discussion but Id hazard a guess at around $4000 for speakers and $2000 amps. Im not familiar with the other componants so Ill let others chip in if they will.
    I don't know if we've ever met, but I spent many years in Perth in the esoteric audio field as service manager for Douglas Hi-Fi, The Audio Centre and Alberts Hi-Fi and during these years the words "law of diminishing returns" would exit my lips almost every day. Sound is subjective, everyone having their own idea of how a particular instrument sounds, and so it always intrigued me as to what our high spending customers based their ideas on. Let's face it, sitting in a centre row at a concert, the sound will be somewhat different if sitting to one side or the other, even though concert halls use electronic equalisation.
    Harry

  13. #27
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    Dec 2011
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    Brisbane
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    I figure when you can stop hearing a reasonable difference it is time to stop spending money, there is no set money value on that point, I can still hear what is missing and I know how much better it can sound.

    Once I build this set of speakers I think it is going to be hard to beat them on the budget I have available. So this really is going to be my last big purchase for a while.

    I have done a few more mock ups of the tweeter cabinet with the Raal tweeter in place of a round tweeter I was going to use earlier.

    I am going to run a corner rounding bit over the top and bottom lids but it is hard to draw a curve on a curve in Sketckup so you will need to imagine that bit for the time being.

  14. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Rockingham, Western Australia
    Age
    90
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    147

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    Oh how we would have loved to have you as a customer in the 70's and 80'S, you would have received the very finest service anywhere in the world. Those were the days when a Mark Levinson pre amp. cost three and a half grand and his ten watt a side pure class A power amp. five grand. Never ever did we disagree when a prospective customer claimed to hear a "difference", even if that difference was about to cost him (it was always males) a small fortune. Who were we to argue! Some people get their pleasure by changing cars at regular intervals, others by simply counting their money, yet others by seeking the ultimate in sound reproduction.
    Harry

  15. #29
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    Dec 2011
    Location
    Brisbane
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    What can I say I am a sucker for the dream of audio nivrarna

    You may not believe that you can tell the difference between a pair of $12k Cremona's and a $55k pair of Gryphons, but I can definately tell a diffference.

    If I can build the same for less without the name brand then I have to go for it. Only time will tell if it was a good gamble...

  16. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Rockingham, Western Australia
    Age
    90
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    147

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    If not for the risk of embarrassing you, I would love to put you through some blind tests. The results of these tests are usually not much better than 50-50.
    But that's enough from me trying to save you money, from now on I'll try to confine myself to giving you any routing help that I can.
    Harry

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