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  1. #1
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    Default Hiding a scarf joint

    Hi guys, I thought I'd post this short tute, I know the subject regarding scarf joins has been kicked around a few time but a friend did one for the fist time the other day and was a little unsure as to the best way to glue it up, and hiding the join can be a bit tricky too.

    I've indicated 19 mm stock because that's what I've been using, you use what you like.

    The top diagram seems to be a preferred method for some because the straight grain runs the length of the angled headstock but you can't hide the join that way and from what I've read in the past the strength factor is the same either way.

    So you cut your preferred angle, turn it up side down and glue it underneath yeah?..........No. Before you glue it up you thickness it down to 13mm on the sort side, that way you have more length to play with, it'll most likely end up too long anyway and you'll need to cut it. Now you can glue it flush with the top as shown in the middle diagram. The reason I take it down to 13mm is so that the join is then well forward of the nut on the under side and may be covered with a veneer of you choice as with the top of the headstock, and the veneers will reinforce the headstock.

    So, 2 veneers at 2mm each + 13mm on the headstock gives us 17mm, just enough room for machine heads. Also if you position the top veneer as shown in the bottom diagram you can create a nice neat slot for the nut to sit in without cutting into the neck.

    Oh and if you add side veneers or wings to the headstock as well it will completely cover the join and reinforce the headstock even more.

    You'll also notice that I taper my neck down to 15mm just back from the nut because I like volutes and I know what you're thinking, 15mm? are you crazy? But if you add a 8 or 10 mm fret board you now have a good chunky neck with plenty of material in the fret board for radius of your choice.

    This is the method I use and it seems to work well for me.

    I hope this is helpful.

    regards to all and all the best for the new year,

    Wal
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    <style type="text/css">p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line- 120%; }</style> Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Abert_Einstein.


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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    North Carolina - USA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by walcen View Post
    Hi guys, I thought I'd post this short tute, I know the subject regarding scarf joins has been kicked around a few time but a friend did one for the fist time the other day and was a little unsure as to the best way to glue it up, and hiding the join can be a bit tricky too.

    I've indicated 19 mm stock because that's what I've been using, you use what you like.

    The top diagram seems to be a preferred method for some because the straight grain runs the length of the angled headstock but you can't hide the join that way and from what I've read in the past the strength factor is the same either way.

    So you cut your preferred angle, turn it up side down and glue it underneath yeah?..........No. Before you glue it up you thickness it down to 13mm on the sort side, that way you have more length to play with, it'll most likely end up too long anyway and you'll need to cut it. Now you can glue it flush with the top as shown in the middle diagram. The reason I take it down to 13mm is so that the join is then well forward of the nut on the under side and may be covered with a veneer of you choice as with the top of the headstock, and the veneers will reinforce the headstock.

    So, 2 veneers at 2mm each + 13mm on the headstock gives us 17mm, just enough room for machine heads. Also if you position the top veneer as shown in the bottom diagram you can create a nice neat slot for the nut to sit in without cutting into the neck.

    Oh and if you add side veneers or wings to the headstock as well it will completely cover the join and reinforce the headstock even more.

    You'll also notice that I taper my neck down to 15mm just back from the nut because I like volutes and I know what you're thinking, 15mm? are you crazy? But if you add a 8 or 10 mm fret board you now have a good chunky neck with plenty of material in the fret board for radius of your choice.

    This is the method I use and it seems to work well for me.

    I hope this is helpful.

    regards to all and all the best for the new year,

    Wal
    Hey Wal thanks for the write-up... I've often thought I might try a scarf joint but wondered what advantages a scarf joined headstock has over a full laminated neck. I couldn't think of any advantages, so I've not done scarf jointed neck/headstock yet. Are there any advantages of scarf vers laminated - pros/cons?

    By laminated I mean several flat sawn boards face glued together to make up the width and thickness needed, like this one here.



    Thanks
    Mills Custom sawing - Everyone wants my wood

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mills View Post
    Hey Wal thanks for the write-up... I've often thought I might try a scarf joint but wondered what advantages a scarf joined headstock has over a full laminated neck. I couldn't think of any advantages, so I've not done scarf jointed neck/headstock yet. Are there any advantages of scarf vers laminated - pros/cons?

    By laminated I mean several flat sawn boards face glued together to make up the width and thickness needed, like this one here.

    Thanks
    Hi Jeff Thanks for responding, a fully laminated neck like the one pictured in your post is really really strong and would probably never have any issues. but if you make a neck similar to a Les Paul that has a 13 to 15 deg head stock they WILL break around the truss adjusting nut if they are dropped. The reason for this is because the wood grain on the head stock runs at the same trajectory as the neck which means that the it is really sort, combine that with string tension and we have a problem. Just look up broken head stocks on google images and you will see they all break in that airier.

    With a scarf join we are changing the wood grain angle to run down the full length of the head stock making it much much stronger and more rigid also aiding in better sustain. I have had little to do with laminated neck but logic and what I've read in the past would tell me that they are extremely strong and rigid.

    regards

    Wal
    <style type="text/css">p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line- 120%; }</style> Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Abert_Einstein.


  5. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
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    Florida
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    Cool

    Thanks for the sketch too! I have only built a couple necks and neither had a scarf joint. Next project is a 335 type and it will.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    North Carolina - USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by walcen View Post
    Hi Jeff Thanks for responding, a fully laminated neck like the one pictured in your post is really really strong and would probably never have any issues. but if you make a neck similar to a Les Paul that has a 13 to 15 deg head stock they WILL break around the truss adjusting nut if they are dropped. The reason for this is because the wood grain on the head stock runs at the same trajectory as the neck which means that the it is really sort, combine that with string tension and we have a problem. Just look up broken head stocks on google images and you will see they all break in that airier.

    With a scarf join we are changing the wood grain angle to run down the full length of the head stock making it much much stronger and more rigid also aiding in better sustain. I have had little to do with laminated neck but logic and what I've read in the past would tell me that they are extremely strong and rigid.

    regards

    Wal
    Thanks Wal - As you suggested I googled Gibson broken headstock and came up with some interesting reading I had no idea Les Pauls had such problems. I guess anyway you look at a scarf joint, it's having to deal with gluing endgrain which is problematic in it's own right... your idea of sandwiching the scarf joint between a 1/16" top and bottom veneer seems to offer a lots of advantages over a naked scarf joint. if the veneer is flatsawn, it would seem what your doing is effectively creating a form of solid core type plywood. That in combination with a volute should make for a really strong neck.

    Also thanks for confirming a laminated neck-though design is a good one. When i was building the one I posted, i tried to break the neck by jumping on it - it just laughed at me and i'm not a small guy either...
    Mills Custom sawing - Everyone wants my wood

  7. #6
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    Oct 2005
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    Bagdad Tasmania
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by walcen View Post
    Hi Jeff Thanks for responding, a fully laminated neck like the one pictured in your post is really really strong and would probably never have any issues. but if you make a neck similar to a Les Paul that has a 13 to 15 deg head stock they WILL break around the truss adjusting nut if they are dropped. The reason for this is because the wood grain on the head stock runs at the same trajectory as the neck which means that the it is really sort, combine that with string tension and we have a problem. Just look up broken head stocks on google images and you will see they all break in that airier.

    With a scarf join we are changing the wood grain angle to run down the full length of the head stock making it much much stronger and more rigid also aiding in better sustain. I have had little to do with laminated neck but logic and what I've read in the past would tell me that they are extremely strong and rigid.

    regards

    Wal
    Hi Wal, I have more and more customers these days requesting laminated neck blanks as they are much stronger and more stable.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodturner777 View Post
    Hi Wal, I have more and more customers these days requesting laminated neck blanks as they are much stronger and more stable.
    Hi Bob, how goes it? Do you look for specific woods to laminate together or can you laminate the same type of wood and get the same result?

    Also when you laminate, do you have all the grains running the same way?

    cheers

    Wal
    <style type="text/css">p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line- 120%; }</style> Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Abert_Einstein.


  9. #8
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    Aug 2005
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    Perth
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by walcen View Post
    So, 2 veneers at 2mm each + 13mm on the headstock gives us 17mm, just enough room for machine heads. Also if you position the top veneer as shown in the bottom diagram you can create a nice neat slot for the nut to sit in without cutting into the neck.
    Why do you want to hide the scarf, on most necks with tinted lacquers or even clears it is barely visible. Thicknessing the scarfed piece and then applying laminates top and bottom is a lot of extra work for something that is not very noticeable normally.

    I dont know If I personally would like the look of a veneer top and bottom.

    But each to there own.

    Yes scarfed headstocks break easily when mis-handled, they dont break because of the grain direction or anything like that, they break because of poor handling. The acute headstock angle makes it easy to damage them and transfer the load to the weakest area, then the fractures run with the grain in most cases, sometimes on a nasty break the damage is so great it snaps the headstock off without running with the grain, in this case it will need splines to re-inforce the area.

    Most well thought out scarfs are located under the fretboard, this way the fretboard imparts strength to the joined area

    Non scarfed headstocks are strong, but theres something about a scarfed headstock that is for me sexy, nice volutes etc.

    Heres our webpage on broken headstocks, they are a very common repair, we like to insert splines if the customer allows us, just to add a bit more strength to a somewhat weaker area.

    Cracked Headstocks

    Steve

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Caves Beach, NSW
    Posts
    277

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    001.jpgHi Wal, I do it like your third diagram, but leave the headstock piece thick, cut down the back of the neck shaft to about 2mm more than finished neck depth (at the joint area)
    I then thickness the back of the headstock with a spindle sander and fence leaving a smiley face volute.
    The join ends up in the transition between neck shaft and volute where IMHO it looks a lot better and is stronger

  11. #10
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    aust
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    Quote Originally Posted by walcen View Post
    The reason for this is because the wood grain on the head stock runs at the same trajectory as the neck which means that the it is really sort, combine that with string tension and we have a problem. Just look up broken head stocks on google images and you will see they all break in that airier.
    Wal, your method of scarfing a headstock on with the joint parallel to the fretboard, totally misses the area where Gibson headstocks break. They almost exclusively, break on the fretboard side where you scarf is.

    As Steve (simso) states, scarfing with the joint parallel to the headstock face, with the joint under the fretboard, is much stronger.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mills View Post

    Are there any advantages of scarf vers laminated - pros/cons?
    Where neck/headstock angle is significant as on classicals and steel strings using a scarf joint reduces amount of wood wood wastage and a thinner neck blank can be used.

    Re veneering back of headstock to hide the scarf joint...I kind of like the look of a headstock with veneer both sides.
    Whatever note you blow youre never more than a semitone away from the correct one....(Miles Davis)

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