council planning and construction permits

[jardyDIY]

hey fellas

ive got a bit of renovation to do to my new backyard. as a quick idea; add 135m2 of concrete (getting pros in for that cos of the sizeable area) and an extention to an existing pergola (ill do that) to cover it up nicely. the work wont be intrusive to neighbors (ie not high, not going to kill any views or anything) and the land ive got to play with is flat and free of bushfire/landslide/etc hazards. i dont have any sewer access problems, but will be checking for any other things soon

ive come up against council permits and engineering costs however. concrete wont be a problem for engineers (provided its to a proper thickness and mpa grade for what i want), but the extension to the pergola likely will be. from the little research ive done, these costs are going to be considerable, and given the existing pergola wasnt done via permit when it was built, and hearsay suggests about half of all work is done without permit, im interested in why i would bother with the council? ive squared off against them before and to my mind theyre useless, beaurocratic and idealistic numpties - a terrifying combination to deal with when it comes to fee scales. ill drop in tuesday to get an accurate idea of fees to be sure though

i understand why the permit system exists, to root out the lowest common denominator in construction methods, and to make sure land and proximity hazards are avoided. what i dont understand is why it costs so goddamn much considering we pay rates and other assorted taxes already. engineering costs aside

im definitely not alone in this pondering, but was wondering of the consequences of ignoring this beaurocracy? my construction methods are sound and ill be building this to last through wind and storms for a long time to come

is it just a matter of potential future buyers using lack of permits as a haggling point? if i never require the council to approve of what ive done, can it be a case of "ill get it engineered if you threaten me with plausible legal action?". im leaning toward not worring about their input for now, i know what i build will be safe and engineers wont have too much of a problem with it (pedantic engineers with poetic licence perhaps not so much), should i have to get it done later down the track

in future im planning on some decking level with the ground/concrete (ie for appearance sake only, not raised or anything) which apparently has to be engineered and approved. i cant see why engineering is a requisite for that (fair enough if it was raised, handrails and stairs and things) so im not overly keen on complying with that either

any of you chaps been there done that and can offer a little wisdom to a young, arrogant, competent fool?

[bsrlee]

The cynical side says 'Because they can' and 'To keep them off the streets' (or out of other 'business' premises).

Asking the council directly is not likely to get you too far, other than a demand for money & a bald statement that they control everything you do, including what colour you can paint your house. (true in some areas)

Have a scratch around for 'independant' DIY building info sites - strangely there is a sister site to this one for just that purpose - and see what really applies in your state (I'm from NSW, and we get some stuff that you can do without reference to council for sheds etc).

Real reasons for regulation has to do with rain water runoff - probably not a problem for you, but a serious problem in some suburbs where new work ends up in the down hill neighbour's lounge room, as well as not having decks collapse (first time for several years I haven't seen a collapsing deck story over Xmas/NY in the local news) or having someone fall off, drown in a pool etc. They just grind everyone up to the same size, regardless.

[jardyDIY]

thanks

i had time today to swing by wyndham council and spoke to a chap who advises on construction. nicer than i thought and did seem to know what he was on about. rarity perhaps

no doubt these figures/whatev will change over time but for now;

$433 for a building permit. planning permit i think he said was for if i wanted to open a business at this place
$1.28 per $1000 for over $5000 state govt levy, on the cost of the project
$34.85 for a lodgement something, i cant remember exactly what. might be cos its over $5000 i cant remember

concrete doesnt need engineering, but you do need to check with your utilities company about where sewer lines are, and you gotta check for size depth and offset. which as far as i can work out is to determine how far away you can build from the lines underneath (600mm clearance straight up, a varying measurement at 45deg depending on what you're doing above). you might be able to go over easements which i may have to but thats subject to approval and permits

decking needs engineering if its posts/joists/bearers, nothing required if its on concrete though. id imagine if its quite high thats a different story, he was talking to the people before me about disabled access and guard rails and things

over 80% of site cant be hard surface, not sure if you can get approval for more cos it didnt concern me

over 60% of site cant be roof areas without further approval which involves talking to both neighbors and council. pretty sure thats gunna get me

im a little shady on this, but i think you're allowed to build minimum 150mm away from boundaries, any less requires further approval with neighbors and council. height matters too when its close to the boundary, i think 3m up was the limit at 150mm. he mentioned that was an average height. so 2.8 at one extreme of a shed height and 3.2m at the next can be acceptable. 2.9m at one and 3.4m at the other needs further approval

my existing pergola that wasnt done via permit was raised, he said not ideal and theres another process for that, buuttt if ive got a building permit going, the pergola can be inspected and included in the permit as long as its sound and meets requirements

say if i wanted decking and a pergola and a shed, the building permit covers it all at once. obviously engineering fees and stuff are seperate to that

thats all i remember talking to him about

engineering costs vary so i didnt get a figure on that yet, quite sure ill get a prefab shed which comes with documentation to keep the council happy though. costs of eng plus materials (particularly colourbond) will likely end up more than building it myself so it kinda defeats the purpose. im sure i could make some non structurally threatening mods here and there

doesnt seem excessive with fees so im happy to do what the council wants

[Mulgabill]

Interesting info jardyDIY!

When including other proposed works into one permit just check if there is a time limit for the completion of works. I could be proved wrong, as is usually the case, but many years ago there used to be one and if the works were not completed an extension (with more fees) would have to be sought. This could have been done away with over the time.

[jardyDIY]

this was just overhearing what the people in front of me were talking about (they kept asking the same questions :/) so dont hold me to it but i think building permits are in the region of 2 years if i think to ask about it ill find out for sure when i go through it all

[Scally]

That sounds like a reasonable deal if you can get everything done under a single approval.

I wanted to build a shed and maybe add a pergola later. When I looked at the approval cost, I decided to include the pergola with the shed in the application.

I was concerned about utilities and Council has a 50% limit on hard surfaces...........I got up to 48.?%.

A 6 x 6m shed and 9 x 3m pergola on slabs cost $4,000 for plans, approvals and Council inspections.
Then another $900 for a 2 minute job by an engineer for the shed slab.
I was surprised to need a surveyor as I only bought the place 2 years before. Another $600 for a 30 minute onsite job.
There will be more fees when I go to get 3 phase onto the shed. Maybe a few hundred dollars?

It hurts paying over $5,000 to do the right thing on a pretty basic build.
It is $5,000 that I could have built something with.

At least I know everything is approved and I wont have any hassles if I decide to sell the place one day.

[jardyDIY]

ouch see thats what i was worried about. you weigh it up and the price becomes ridiculous

had a quick word to the guy who built my pergola, defo no permit he said. as if permits are the most ridiculous #### hes ever heard. i swung by the house tonight and the guttering on the garage side side all but overhangs a boundary. yeah good work chief

anyone had a similar drama? im a little hesitant to bring it up with the council since ill practically be telling them its against regs/illegal construction. cue penalty i spose

neighbors arent mad, the side of their property that my pergola meets is the sideway of their house which is unused. ill ensure drainage doesnt affect them so it doesnt become their problem

the shed ive planned now crosses an easement which is a citiwest water asset (sewer i guess). i might be able to build over, i have to apply for a (rather aptly named) "building over easement permit", which is $218.30

[Scally]

I didn't have any problem building over a similar easement.
They had standard specs which were within what I was planning for the slab.
You should be fine after you pay!

It wasn't an extra cost for me.

[TinysMav]

I had a beauty in Kalgoorlie trying to erect a 8m x 6m patio alongside the house.

The house plans showed that the sewer line did a 45 degree bend to the right, straight for 2m, then another 45 degree bend to the left to straighten out and head straight for the rear boundary fence into the laneway. Floor of the patio was going to be pavers.

But, the Kalgoorlie council refused to allow use to build the patio over the sewer line - "a future owner may wish to enclose the patio and turn it into a room. If they concrete the floor of this room they will not be able to get to the bends in the sewer if they need too."

I reply - "That's not my problem, that is yours for allowing them to do that over a sewer line."

Council - "But they may do it without council approval..."

Having said that, this idiot is the only one I dealt with, all other councils in WA that I have had dealings with have been great!