Cigar Box Questions

[Ball Peen]

On Cigar Box Nation I've heard experienced builders whinge about the job taking more than 3hrs.

[Humphrey9999]

On Cigar Box Nation I've heard experienced builders whinge about the job taking more than 3hrs.

They'd love me. My target is about 3 months.

[kiwigeo]

Been making a little bit of a study of truss rods and how to fit them this afternoon. StewMac has a bit of info. Looks fairly straightforward.

If you're using nylon strings you can get away without incorporating a truss rod in the neck of the instrument. If you're making a 4 string and its your first build I'd strongly recommend leaving out a truss rod....no point making the construction process more complicated than it has to be.

Playing around with scale lengths is ok but bear in mind if you end up using a non standard scale length then working out how much compensation to incorporate at the saddle may end up as a trial and error process. The process can be made easier by working out the stretch of the strings you plan to use and working out exact compensation by way of some engineering formulas.....to read up on same check out Trevor Gore and gerard Gilet's Books "Contemporary Acoustic Guitar Design and Build".

[Humphrey9999]

If you're using nylon strings you can get away without incorporating a truss rod in the neck of the instrument. If you're making a 4 string and its your first build I'd strongly recommend leaving out a truss rod....no point making the construction process more complicated than it has to be.

Playing around with scale lengths is ok but bear in mind if you end up using a non standard scale length then working out how much compensation to incorporate at the saddle may end up as a trial and error process. The process can be made easier by working out the stretch of the strings you plan to use and working out exact compensation by way of some engineering formulas.....to read up on same check out Trevor Gore and gerard Gilet's Books "Contemporary Acoustic Guitar Design and Build".

Thanks heaps for the extra info, it all helps.
I was only referring to using a truss rod in a 6 steel string accoustic. If I was sensible and stuck to 4 strings, I wouldn't need one, but I've now decided to dive in the deep end and slowly build a 6-string.

You raise a good point regarding compensation. Originally, I'd been thinking of a 25.5" scale length, same as a Strat, since revised to 25", but I might have to re-think, since I don't want to do too much trial and error or advanced maths if I can avoid it.
At the moment, my plan calls for a 25" scale with 16 frets, all clear of the body. I have a set of Grover mini 6-in-line tuners and a bone nut to suit my planned neck width/string span, but haven't looked at bridges, saddles and compensation, beyond basically planning to use a pegged bridge type like on many steel string accoustics.

Edit: If I use a 25.34" scale, I can use a compensated bridge and saddle for a Martin steel-string accoustic. Should be near enough for me. I'm tone-deaf anyway.
What do you think?

[Jef Long]

Hi, I've made dozens, and well over a hundred cookie tin guitars (which I like better usually) too..
Ill give you a few suggestions..
1. Do a shorter scale length. I usually do 600mm. Almost every open tuning will have a perfect fifth in it somewhere, you just can't reach everything on a guitar scale, which issue for fourths not fifths.. Don't worry about intonating it, that's gonna take the same effort regardless, there is no magic formula, this is always done by ear or tuner machine.
2 do more frets clear of the box. A lot of cigar box guitars you see on the Internet have the bridge right at the rear edge of the box. There is no tone or volume here, you want it nearer the centre..
3 if you can, pitch your neck. After about five or six I came up with a 'body end scarf joint' to create height in my bridge..

If you're in Melbourne drop me a line and stop over sometime, ill show you a heap of cool little tricks

To your other question, merbau works great for necks, very strong wood. I've used recycled decking (3 or 4 lammed up) for many many necks.

Here's some merbau necks







--(both six string gitts with no truss rod.. Merbau is very strong)

[Humphrey9999]

Hi, I've made dozens, and well over a hundred cookie tin guitars (which I like better usually) too..
Ill give you a few suggestions..
1. Do a shorter scale length. I usually do 600mm. Almost every open tuning will have a perfect fifth in it somewhere, you just can't reach everything on a guitar scale, which issue for fourths not fifths.. Don't worry about intonating it, that's gonna take the same effort regardless, there is no magic formula, this is always done by ear or tuner machine.
2 do more frets clear of the box. A lot of cigar box guitars you see on the Internet have the bridge right at the rear edge of the box. There is no tone or volume here, you want it nearer the centre..
3 if you can, pitch your neck. After about five or six I came up with a 'body end scarf joint' to create height in my bridge..

If you're in Melbourne drop me a line and stop over sometime, ill show you a heap of cool little tricks

To your other question, merbau works great for necks, very strong wood. I've used recycled decking (3 or 4 lammed up) for many many necks.

Here's some merbau necks
--(both six string gitts with no truss rod.. Merbau is very strong)

They look great, Jef. Some good tips, too. I'll address them in order: -

1. & 2. I quickly realised that with my original plan that the bridge/saddle would end up too close to the rear of the box/body. Thought about a shorter scale/more frets clear of the body, but in the end stuck with the 25.34" scale and 16 frets clear of the body. Currently, with a 300mm body, that places the saddle 55mm from the rear of the box. Would have preferred 75mm - 1/4 the box length.
I've decided to use a 1" longer body, 325mm, which places the saddle 80mm from the back of the box - about 1/4 of it's length.
As well, to help with volume, the soundboard will be 3mm clear of the thru-neck, with a 3mm radius convex shape to help support the bridge. I'll build in a very slight neck angle, 0.4 degrees, which nicely compensates for the extra 1.5mm height of the bridge due to the convex shape.
For intonation, I figured I'll start with a 4 degree saddle angle, then work from there with a tuner.

3. I have a 7.9 degree headstock angle, plus the top drops away 3mm behind the nut, Strat-style, so string angles to the tuner pegs are a decent 9.5mm to 14mm. Should be enough pressure to keep the strings firmly on the nut.
I'm adding a volute to the back of the headstock break point, to increase strength and add a bit of extra meat below the top end of the truss-rod. I planned a Hot Rod 2-way truss-rod, but they're too tall for my neck design, so I just ordered a 14.25" LMI double-action rod. Needs a slightly wider slot at 6.4mm, but it only needs a 9.3mm deep slot, compared with 11.1mm for the Hot Rod equivalent. I can round the slot bottom to leave even more of the neck intact.

Seeing your Merbau necks gives me more confidence that mine will look good.

I don't get to Melbourne much any more, but if/when I do I'd like to drop in. (Was born and bred in Melbourne, Oakleigh area, but moved to NSW 30 years ago.)

This is the new headstock side view plan, just re-drawn to accommodate the LMI truss-rod. (I'll make the volute a bit larger yet, I think. Still playing with the drawing.): -

[orraloon]

Hi,
Well after all your good advice and quite a long time to think about it I finally gave it a shot and made my first CBG. I used a bit of bluegum for the neck and just slotted the frets in it. No fret board. It is a 23'' scale and tuned DGBE for now. Light guage steel strings and does have that delta blues tinny sound. I still have a ways to go playing wise however. I have picked up some lessons on the way like the neck being a bit on the chunkey side so the mark 2 will be more streemlined. Anyhoo a few pics.
Regards
John

[Sebastiaan56]

This is worth a separate thread John, it looks very nice!

[orraloon]

Sebastiaan56,
Thanks for the encouragement. I think I may have got a bit of beginners luck as I like the look of it myself and it does have a blusey tone. That said it is a long way from being the perfect instrument. When first strung I realised I had made the neck a bit on the chunkey side and fingering was a bit aquard. I reduced the thickness some and that has helped a bit and I guess with practice I'll get more used to it. I am reluctant to thin it more due to the tension of the wire strings. I am guessing that nylon strings would not have the right sound for one of these although I am happy to experiment.
I am building up a list of things to do a bit better in mark 2
Regards
John