Experimental Violin by Barry Guest

[RETIRED]

Rightio Kiddies. I have deleted all hijack posts and edited some others. Keep this on topic as it is most interesting and needs no other crap in here.

Any further digressions will be dealt with severely.

[Baz1000]

If you check my links in the last post you'll find some good company. And then there's the electric violin crowd, and Steinberger et al. These things do sell, they sell well and the sell for lots.

I suppose your market are people who want a traditional violin that looks like a traditional guitar. But if it works, it'll catch on.

I have several albums by David Darling who plays an 8 string electric cello, and has been doing so for ages. The other week I saw a snare drum mounted inside another snare drum and it sounded awesome.

I was listening to Philip Glass on Big Ideas last week and he made the comment about visual art moving so much faster than music, being radical and experimental by its very nature. Whereas people are so conservative about music. That's why all his fans and supporters were from the visual arts. You're certainly not alone, experimenters are everywhere, I only wish your violin were more experimental, cos classical guitars haven't changed all that much either and they could do with some improvement. Or maybe that's just guitarists I'm thinking of.

It was remiss of me not to answer you fretless. Sorry about that. I had actually seen all those links previously, but you are right. There seems to be a movement gaining impetus throughout the world embracing violins that are different. Check this one out, a friend of mine in Wales: Timsviolins

[Ball Peen]

Thanks for the link Barry. He must be doing everything right, his player list is a folkie who's who.

[Baz1000]

Thanks for the link Barry. He must be doing everything right, his player list is a folkie who's who.

Yes, he makes around twenty instruments each year and buys a stall at all the important folk festivals. He doesn't give his violins away, so if you see a top player with one of his instruments, it has been purchased. He doesn't advertise, so his website is his big marketing tool. Nice bloke too.

[woodturner777]

Thank you from me also for the link Barry, great site beautiful instruments.
Cheers Bob

Yes, he makes around twenty instruments each year and buys a stall at all the important folk festivals. He doesn't give his violins away, so if you see a top player with one of his instruments, it has been purchased. He doesn't advertise, so his website is his big marketing tool. Nice bloke too.

[Baz1000]

I've given my violin a name and a blog. Check it out. Still waiting on the Youtube video.

The Violare: A Violin Breaking with Tradition | The Violare, breaking tradition

[FenceFurniture]

But Baz, shouldn't it be called the "Violairy", given what the traditionalists will no doubt be grumbling about in their sleep? Stick it up 'em I say. Shake 'em up, and rattle 'em around.

Full credit to you for pushing the envelope. It doesn't always work, but you sound very, very confident that it has in this case.

No doubt Stradavari broke with a tradition or two and got some pushback as a result. But where would we be without him eh? I also have no doubt that the first Fiddle players were heavily frowned upon by the classical people (only to be vastly annoyed to observe their own toe tapping).

Btw, what's a double blind test?

Cheers
Brett

[Ball Peen]

But Baz, shouldn't it be called the "Violairy", given what the traditionalists will no doubt be grumbling about in their sleep? Stick it up 'em I say. Shake 'em up, and rattle 'em around.

Full credit to you for pushing the envelope. It doesn't always work, but you sound very, very confident that it has in this case.

No doubt Stradavari broke with a tradition or two and got some pushback as a result. But where would we be without him eh? I also have no doubt that the first Fiddle players were heavily frowned upon by the classical people (only to be vastly annoyed to observe their own toe tapping).

Btw, what's a double blind test?

Cheers
Brett

Brett,
The fiddlers got here 1st, then the violinists, thank you very much. The main difference is fiddle music is for dancing and violin music is for performance.

[Baz1000]

But Baz, shouldn't it be called the "Violairy", given what the traditionalists will no doubt be grumbling about in their sleep? Stick it up 'em I say. Shake 'em up, and rattle 'em around.

Full credit to you for pushing the envelope. It doesn't always work, but you sound very, very confident that it has in this case.

No doubt Stradavari broke with a tradition or two and got some pushback as a result. But where would we be without him eh? I also have no doubt that the first Fiddle players were heavily frowned upon by the classical people (only to be vastly annoyed to observe their own toe tapping).

Btw, what's a double blind test?

Cheers
Brett

Thanks Brett, love your humour. A double blind test, in a test of many instruments, is when the player doesn't know which instrument he/she is playing and the listener doesn't know which instrument he/she is listening to. Usually, the player is blindfolded and plays behind a screen.

[FenceFurniture]

I was just showing this radical, nay shamefulViolairy to my partner and we discussed it for a bit. A few points came up:

• If this is the shape and engineering that produces the goods soundwise, then history would wish that it was invented several hundred years ago
• If the former had happened, then there'd be nobody "got the vapours" now (but this thread prolly wouldn't have happened)
• What is the audience attending the concert for? To be possibly (not) offended by appearance of something they can't even see from 50 metres back, or are they actually there for the sounds they will hear?
• When it comes to tools, they have to work to the max first, and bling comes later, if it's workable. If bling gets in the road of performance, then the bling doesn't happen.

[Baz1000]

I was just showing this radical, nay shamefulViolairy to my partner and we discussed it for a bit. A few points came up:

• If this is the shape and engineering that produces the goods soundwise, then history would wish that it was invented several hundred years ago
• If the former had happened, then there'd be nobody "got the vapours" now (but this thread prolly wouldn't have happened)
• What is the audience attending the concert for? To be possibly (not) offended by appearance of something they can't even see from 50 metres back, or are they actually there for the sounds they will hear?
• When it comes to tools, they have to work to the max first, and bling comes later, if it's workable. If bling gets in the road of performance, then the bling doesn't happen.

"shameful" indeed. But come to think of it, there would be many top of the tree players, experts, auction houses and collectors who would be shamed by such an upstart as this instrument. I doubt if some would even care to listen to it.

The prototype made its way North from here to be tested by a Phd in Musical Performance (violin) and to be videoed for Youtube. Well, that hasn't happened yet, but she has played it and made these comments:

"The violin arrived yesterday and I took it along to a rehearsal. The top end is great! Here is where it shines, especially given its 'newness'. It can even handle Romantic Classical repertoire re projection, intensity and clarity but it also has a sweetness about the tone 'way up there'. I can't get the same out of the lower two strings, primarily (I think) due to the very low action - I was 'fretting it out' with the pressure of my bow, producing a rattle. However, played gently, it has a warm, airy tone down there - very suitable for Baroque style (18th century/pre-Romantic era) Folk or Classical. A couple of my colleagues think it would sound great with gut strings - the real deal ones - so I might experiment with this, I have a Justin White Baroque violin to compare it to as well.

Interestingly, I found the Baroque style of playing suited your other violin too, perhaps it is in the timbers? My group were also unanimous in hearing a brilliant violin, when played as one, and are now very curious about your mandolins! My colleagues are both world class guitarists (you can find them on YouTube - spryce1 channel - as 'EphenStephen'), who really know their stuff with all things guitar and acoustic sound in general, having also performed Vivaldi's double mandolin concerto with the local Symphony orchestra.

But I digress, a few other observations...I think you'll find shortening the string length will help with the machine heads (which I will do) - like other instruments that use these (guitars/mandolins etc.), too much string wound around the heads means you can be rotating them up to 3, 4, or even 5 times before you get any pitch movement, then 'click', there it goes (often beyond the pitch you're after). Another option for a geared tuning system would be 'planetary pegs' - check them out, though I think they're pretty expensive. The whole geared tuning thing is a great idea, especially for student model violins, it makes tuning a lot easier once string wind is right.

So, where I'm at with the violin now...as no doubt you're aware, newly made violins take time to 'settle in' with playing and opening up of timbers, so we could have a very different violin 2 years down the track, especially regarding the bottom end. That aside, I might have a go at recording some comparisons/different styles first, to show you all these things I'm talking about, then we can decide what might be best for YouTube..."

I hope the youtube clip will be done soon.

[jeffhigh]

Barry, it's good to see the larger photos, it looks great
Aesthetically my preference would be the curved slits of the first with the oval hole of the second, but thats only me.

[FenceFurniture]

That's excellent encouragement Baz, you must be feeling quited buoyed by that.

I agree with Jeff in the curved slits - they blended into the overall shape very nicely, but when they are straight they tend to stand out a bit.

[Baz1000]

Barry, it's good to see the larger photos, it looks great
Aesthetically my preference would be the curved slits of the first with the oval hole of the second, but thats only me.

I tend to agree, aesthetically. However, my mentor in acoustics John McLennan said that the straight slits would work better, although I haven't got a reason from him. To my mind, the curved slits free up a greater area of the belly for vibration. But I'll have to consult with him again......he's the Phd in the acoustics of the instrument, so I'll consider his advice strongly.

The elliptical hole is now set in stone, whatever happens to the slits. It needs to be that shape so that the bass bar is positioned under the bass foot of the bridge. For the first prototype, I have had to make a special bridge to get the foot over the bass bar. With a normal bridge, there was a very slight depression in the top. Had to fix that.

There are two other prototypes yet to be considered. #3 was John's recommendation with the straight vertical slits, but with horizontal slits projecting towards the sound hole.

The fourth and last prototype is my adaptation of John's recommendations in #3

Now I've confused everyone I suppose. Pics following.

[Baz1000]

IMG_0872.jpgIMG_0866.jpgIMG_0874.jpg

Normal bridge v special bridge for #1. Prototype #3 and #4. These two have not been strung up yet, but from the tap tones, #4 gives me the greatest buzz. They are both in the final stages of varnish, so they will both come out around the same time.