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  1. #46
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    Nice work Baz. I just went back and had a look at the bracing. I'm keen to hear these. The more I see this fiddle the more I like it.
    Cheers, Bill

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ball Peen View Post
    Nice work Baz. I just went back and had a look at the bracing. I'm keen to hear these. The more I see this fiddle the more I like it.
    Thanks mate. Yes, if these two sound better than # 1 & #2, then I'll be over the moon. If they sound as good, it will still be a successful experiment. Waiting for varnish to dry is the pits!!!!

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baz1000 View Post
    Thanks mate. Yes, if these two sound better than # 1 & #2, then I'll be over the moon. If they sound as good, it will still be a successful experiment. Waiting for varnish to dry is the pits!!!!

    Strung up #3 and #4 today, and wow!!! The power is awesome. I am leaning strongly toward #4 as the one, but without the Huon pine top, much preferring Douglas Fir or Spruce. Prototype #3 is an Australian Cedar (toona australis) top.

    IMG_0885.jpgIMG_0880.jpg

  5. #49
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    Baz you have definitely met your design brief and they really look sensational too, well done.

    Steve

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamusur View Post
    Baz you have definitely met your design brief and they really look sensational too, well done.

    Steve

    Thanks Steve, I really appreciate the support and I'm re-invigorated by the good vibes from this forum to take this as far as it can go.

    However, talking to woodies is probably the soft option. I need to get this instrument reviewed by some orchestral players. Even though it is currently being tested by great player, she remains as the only opinion from a player so far.

  7. #51
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    Baz

    I always tell my daughter that you can only guarantee the effort put in and not the result but I understand your feelings about the 'soft (us) versus real player (them) option'. And remember the saying that you have to know the rules before you break them, if not then we are just ploughing away through ignorance. So for me someone who understands the history and evolution behind designing, tooling and cultural conformity (not only with instrument building but any field or path) has certainly earned the right to 'experiment'.
    I reckon only good can come from these 'forays' because the sentiment behind their genesis is clearer and true. Whilst I continue to bumble along and will always keep trying to better my results, doubt if I will ever really contribute myself .
    So keep it up Baz.

    Steve

  8. #52
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    Well bugga tradition when you could have a instrument that looks as good as them. Interestingly to me they still have a very traditional look although it is more the look of a 1800's parlour guitar than a violin.

    Jim

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarwinStrings View Post
    Well bugga tradition when you could have a instrument that looks as good as them. Interestingly to me they still have a very traditional look although it is more the look of a 1800's parlour guitar than a violin.

    Jim
    Seriously, this is the very first image that came to my mind. In particular, the second pic (B&W) in the second row.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
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  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamusur View Post
    Baz

    I always tell my daughter that you can only guarantee the effort put in and not the result but I understand your feelings about the 'soft (us) versus real player (them) option'. And remember the saying that you have to know the rules before you break them, if not then we are just ploughing away through ignorance. So for me someone who understands the history and evolution behind designing, tooling and cultural conformity (not only with instrument building but any field or path) has certainly earned the right to 'experiment'.
    I reckon only good can come from these 'forays' because the sentiment behind their genesis is clearer and true. Whilst I continue to bumble along and will always keep trying to better my results, doubt if I will ever really contribute myself .
    So keep it up Baz.

    Steve
    Steve, Amazingly thoughtful, insightful and encouraging to the extreme. My research and this journey began in 1979, when I was lucky enough as a thirty year old to be mentored and schooled by John Godschall Johnson in his "garage" workshop in Padstow, Sydney. The knowledge and inspiration I got from John was priceless. John never sold an instrument, giving them away to promising students with a label that used the acronym TIMBFGNBOS (this instrument may be freely given never bought or sold)
    My philosophy is largely parallel to Johns, although I have sold instruments to keep the wolves away. That philosophy also embraces change for the good of instrumentation, but definitely not for change for its sake only.
    My collaboration with John McLennan on this experiment is also a lucky break. John's research is recognised worldwide and to have him say to me "don't be so modest, you are breaking new ground", is nothing less than revelation to me. In fact, it is his research that cleared my path in this journey. I was merely the instrument of his work.

  11. #55
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    i just came across this thread , i make carbon fiber ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Baz1000 View Post
    . Cornerless violins have been around for two hundred years, and contrary to some popular belief, corners on violins are superfluous and inhibit vibration.
    that statement is not entirely true , in some ( sound box ) testing i was testing the flexing of the violins ribs while held in a tone, set up in between 2 large speakers producing a tone the strings are tuned too , bouncing a laser of a sticky tape mirror and onto a sensor , looking at an oscilloscope to compare the frequencies (dual trace with 2 lasers)

    the corner blocks fix the ribs in position and the tight curves brace the rib in that area and set up rib wall flex to the large curves on either side , so the violin twists in opposite directions with the axis on the center line , so the top twists one way when the bottom twists the other

    with out the block there is no twist and its end to end flex with the axis around the bridge area (90deg to standard )

    also the 4 "tags" on the F holes are responsible for a lot of the high frequency "harmonics" and flap about a huge amount depending on the note ( i see that you have removed them ) ive spent months just on the thickness of them ,all 4 are different
    ??maybe try a shape where there is a "tag" on the ends of the slits?? ,??/ maybe a Y or T where each wedge has a mass/area in prime number units
    i agree with you , no need for the "f " shape , and helmholtz is a given fact , and they need a slit either side to free up the bridge to rock side to side
    ??/with the flat top is the slit on the base bar side needed ? with a curved top you would have to brake the curve ( too strong ) ,




    comparing your violins is probably the most productive info you can get , my set up rough as guts bench top testing where 2 high wattage speakers are mounted facing each other, one is wired up backwards so the cones move up and down together
    1 PC running a frequency generator pumps tones into a strung up violin mounted between the 2 speakers , the violin will vibrate in tune as if it was played , you can see the string vibrating ( the one in tune )
    an old record player head balanced just touching the bridge will pick up the side too side vibration , and ignore the up and down from the speakers , so on a second PC running voice recognition software you can compare the 2 notes , and instantly see what the violin is doing to the note , i use a pencil with a rubber on the end to prod the violin to dampen small areas to see where the "harmonic notes " are coming from and plan my next plate grading from that , if a tester says its flat in a acustic area , you can find that area ,and change that area only ( well that changes other parts )
    im using CNC with carbon fiber, so if i want a top plate 0.1mm thicker in one area its easy , and have now got my results very repeatable between violins

    im getting pretty quick at setting up sound post positions and fitting of the bridge , you can see very quickly what side of the bridge to thin ,to change the note intensity between the strings , my 3 testers love the setup , and spend hours on it modifying bridges ,and ive got some voice recognition images of some very expensive violins from there help , i cant play the violin

    warning some plain notes, loudly amplified in close proximity , will annoy the crap out of your neighbours , i found E# at 200watts per channel sends me cross eyed and electronic noise dampening ear muffs are a must to remain sane
    how come a 10mm peg dont fit in a 10mm hole

  12. #56
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    E sharp? If there was a key of E sharp major it would be too confusing with all the double sharps ex. F## is G, G## is actually A, etc.
    Just go to F major, one flat.
    Do you have a link to your work?
    Cheers, Bill

  13. #57
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    I just found your builds. The CF rang a bell back in the cobwebs. Nice work.
    Cheers, Bill

  14. #58
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    my first violin https://www.woodworkforums.com/f98/vi...cratch-110427/ . lol i made the molds by hand with that one , i was talked into keeping quite by one of my violin testers
    the speaker box setup is just " add what you need " mess on a bench , not really as set up , it started of with 1 speaker and "chemistry clamps and poles " for Chladni patterns

    RANG LIKE A BELL lol yer over did the first plate i made , and you could park a truck on it without damage

    edit : e sharp , is just an evil noise , no wonder they left the key off the piano but its funny that note will tell you a lot more than any other , its just so wrong , the violin fights its self to produce it , and the " voice image " shows up even the sightless wolf on any other note

    a link to an early posting of what im doing with "voice recognition " software , even links to the software provider
    Carbon Fiber Instruments Forum - Pictures of the voice of different violins ( circFFT)
    i hope you dont mind me keeping my latest findings to my self , all this should get you licking your lips , the 2 violins were recorded with the violin played in open strings , with a microphone 2 inches away from 5 different areas , center top plate , center bottom plate , top bout ( left ) between the bouts , , lower bout , these are over $10,000 violins , and sound files were donated by an american violinist , i have 14 more different violins now ) , some players are disappointed comparing there violins to these , ,i asked for 2 feet away recordings ,.and got them , but he asked to keep them quiet as could affect the $$$ of his violins . i have to agree and kept those recording personal and posting of his recordings anonymously,k each ring is 1/2 the db , so the squiggle in the middle is below hearing of the instrument ( back ground hum )

    he later thanked me , saying these images of "the voice " 2 feet away of his violins could later prove that these are his violins if they were ever stolen , and that gets , "real decent " violins turning up to my door wanting me to mess with them

    they hate when you jack up the volume to get the "big bad wolf " to howl , the howl is what what im interested in , where and why is my question , showing them the bottom the plate has a small crack " here " has them wishing they never came to me
    sell it now , while you cant hear it , ( head phone's cancel out the frequency from PC 1 , compared to PC 2 . you hear an noise that the main tone has been removed ( big bad wolves are easy to find with a rubber ended pencil, adjusting the hz to get it too howl ))
    how come a 10mm peg dont fit in a 10mm hole

  15. #59
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    Default Reply to Sawdustsniffer

    Well, there is a lot to reply to here. However, the devil is in the detail when one is testing with Chladni patterns, helmholtz resonant frequencies and other concoctions pertaining to the physical qualities of a complex box such as a violin.
    Regarding corners on a traditional violin inhibiting vibration, I am wondering if you have ever tested a cornerless violin, and I am also wondering if you know enough about the behaviour of corners versus no-corners to reach conclusions in your findings.

    I am also curious about what you call "tags, and your comment "I see that you have removed them." The ends of the slits on my prototypes have a mop dot to preclude splitting. The slits are not soundholes, but an aid in expanding the vibrating area or the "free plate" area of the top. You then say that you agree that F Holes are not necessary???

    Call me stupid if you wish, but I'm sorry, I find your writings hard to follow.

  16. #60
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    1 , Chaldini patterns i use to verify the plate is of pass standard , with CF the plates are pretty well mass producible , but i still Chaldini patterns test each plate , just to verify the back of the plate grinding by the CNC machine

    2 , yes the difference was from testing a corner-less violin , but have only tested 1

    3 dont look at the f hole as a hole , look whats left , there are 4 "Tags " with square ends , pretty rectangular in shape formed by the "hole" and the " Slit "
    f-hole-06tags.JPG

    the shape of the f shape is not needed , but the top has to be freed up so the bridge can rock side too side , but those tags , are very important , they flap about with 2x - 4x the movement of the rest of the violin , a lot of "high " harmonics come from them, when you twist a violin you can see them pitch up and down
    how come a 10mm peg dont fit in a 10mm hole

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