Experimental Violin by Barry Guest

[Baz1000]

1 , Chaldini patterns i use to verify the plate is of pass standard , with CF the plates are pretty well mass producible , but i still Chaldini patterns test each plate , just to verify the back of the plate grinding by the CNC machine

2 , yes the difference was from testing a corner-less violin , but have only tested 1

3 dont look at the f hole as a hole , look whats left , there are 4 "Tags " with square ends , pretty rectangular in shape formed by the "hole" and the " Slit "
Attachment 266330

the shape of the f shape is not needed , but the top has to be freed up so the bridge can rock side too side , but those tags , are very important , they flap about with 2x - 4x the movement of the rest of the violin , a lot of "high " harmonics come from them, when you twist a violin you can see them pitch up and down

1. What frequency do you use to verify the finalised plate that you want to use?

2. What depth and thickness sides did you test? Were the sides of both cornerless and traditional the same thickness and width?
3. The "tags" are but a tiny part of the plate. Have you muted the "tags" in a comparison test?

I think we will have to agree to disagree unless you demonstrate emperical proof. At the moment, anyone who has followed this post can only judge my prototype by the testimonial I provided from a Phd in Violin Performance. Until I provide a sound sample for all to listen to, I cannot claim to prove anything

[SawDustSniffer]

i spent about 3 months on my latest plate grading just on those tabs , with 4 violins made , over 20 plates tested in mock backs , the patterns are for each note , and compare them to the " master's " photo's i took of the first one in that shape

im not trying to rub you wrong way . im just sharing what ive found , i have only tested 1 violin with out the bouts , i didnt make it, so have no idea how thick the ribs were ,

there is a good video on the dynamics of violin movement , "Strad 3D" - a demo link> Strad3D: Video Tour

the tags might be small but the work they do is huge , yes , ive muted the tabs and watched on the " voice recognition " image change in real time

[Baz1000]

i spent about 3 months on my latest plate grading just on those tabs , with 4 violins made , over 20 plates tested in mock backs , the patterns are for each note , and compare them to the " master's " photo's i took of the first one in that shape

im not trying to rub you wrong way . im just sharing what ive found , i have only tested 1 violin with out the bouts , i didnt make it, so have no idea how thick the ribs were ,

there is a good video on the dynamics of violin movement , "Strad 3D" - a demo link> Strad3D: Video Tour

the tags might be small but the work they do is huge , yes , ive muted the tabs and watched on the " voice recognition " image change in real time

Thanks for that video link. Very cool! I realise that you are just sharing information, but I suppose I have read and studied so much stuff that has sent me in the wrong direction and wasted my time, I am very wary about proof in research terms. Sorry if I seemed impatient.

[Scarletpimperne]

Neil, So how long am I barred for as woodturner.? so i can start to use my name again as it's hard to remember who I am.
Regards Bob

Looks great Barry, it is good to see a luthier thats willing to be different.
regards Bob

[Baz1000]

Here is the link comparing the second Prototype of the Violare Project to a very fine Lupot violin. This particular Lupot is known for it's volume and according to the owner ..."if you are aiming for volume, clarity/brilliance with a warm tone where it's needed, the Lupot is a great target"

I think this comparison shows what I thought of prototype #2, that there was more work to do. Please note that the video indicates Prototype #1, however, it is actually #2.

The Violare Project - YouTube

Prototype #4 is going to John McLennan at the end of June for acoustical tests. Prototype #5, and the last in this series of experiments, is still on the bench.

Thanks for reading
Baz

[FenceFurniture]

G'day Baz

Hard to tell from mpeg compressed audio, but the Lupot sounds a bit richer and warmer. They both appeared to have the same volume (but that could have been auto-adjusted by the recorder). I suppose there are other things that come into it as well such as sustain etc.

Having said that, the difference wasn't big - what would the Lupot be worth?

Cheers
Brett

[Baz1000]

G'day Baz

Hard to tell from mpeg compressed audio, but the Lupot sounds a bit richer and warmer. They both appeared to have the same volume (but that could have been auto-adjusted by the recorder). I suppose there are other things that come into it as well such as sustain etc.

Having said that, the difference wasn't big - what would the Lupot be worth?

Cheers
Brett

Hi Brett,

I get your drift, a Lupot sold recently (Oct 2012) at Sotheby's for 46,850 pounds, (AU$73,500) and have sold for more than that. However, you're appraisal is spot on...."richer and warmer". And you are way too kind to me Brett. I really want to call it like it is....if it walks like a duck! ......it's a duck.

On the other hand, this one was #2 in the series of experiments. Numbers 3 and 4 are far superior and #5 (the one I think will start the revolution) is still on the bench.

[Baz1000]

Forgot to clarify the series in this project. Every prototype has been a conscious design based on acoustical principles or aesthetics . The delivery of #5 will be the culmination of all designs that have each met a criteria based on John Mclennan's research.

Number 1 was the closest to the traditional "F" hole design. Number 2 (the subject of the video) was designed to slightly expand the free plate area of vibration (straight slits), while number 3 expanded the free plate area and also turned the slits inwards toward the elliptical sound hole. Number 4 was an aesthetic refinement of #3 and number 5.....well, you'll have to wait and see.

[FenceFurniture]

Mate, as long as it is still reminiscent of this, you won't have a problem!

[Ball Peen]

Baz,
I prefer the Lupot as well. Still, full marks to you for following this thru and we still have the others to look forward to. Not many put it on the line as you've done here. I could quite easily find room for a fiddle like yours. By the way nice fiddling

[Baz1000]

Baz,
I prefer the Lupot as well. Still, full marks to you for following this thru and we still have the others to look forward to. Not many put it on the line as you've done here. I could quite easily find room for a fiddle like yours. By the way nice fiddling

Thanks mate. Yep, that Lupot sings. However, it ain't over till the fat fiddle sings," and prototypes 4 and 5 will be my redemption. If anything, I could be critical of putting it all on the line as it happened. Maybe I should have waited until I got the whole bunch together. However, and unfortunately, patience is not one of my virtues.

By the way, it wasn't me playing, but if you thought it was, I am flattered.

[SawDustSniffer]

good to hear them , yes , there is a difference in warmth ,
have you played with circFFt , open notes recordings for 4 seconds , then grab an image with a screen shot , once you understand the voice analyzing soft ware , with the decibel rings , each octave drawn over the top of each other , there is a huge amount of info in each note

comparing each version is important , and it sound like you have access to better violin than i do ( for comparison )

[Baz1000]

good to hear them , yes , there is a difference in warmth ,
have you played with circFFt , open notes recordings for 4 seconds , then grab an image with a screen shot , once you understand the voice analyzing soft ware , with the decibel rings , each octave drawn over the top of each other , there is a huge amount of info in each note

comparing each version is important , and it sound like you have access to better violin than i do ( for comparison )

I may have access to a better violin, but I don't have your calibre of equipment for acoustical testing. That's why #4 is going to John McLennan for tests that I can't do. I'll take it to Armidale for further comparison tests with the Lupot after John has his time with it.
How did you get involved with the voice analyzing software etc? Is it something you self- taught?

[SawDustSniffer]

yes , was searching the net for a way to compare my instrament better than just , warmer , very responsive , vauge offerings by my testers ,
and came across circFFt and thought it was way easyer to understand tham meorizing the Hz for each octive for each note looking at the usual graph " sound patterns " with volume for height and hz along the horizonal

my set up has 1/2 decent sound cards in less than $100 dual core HP , with the cnc and other things i just bought 4 of the same make and modle pcs ,

i dont think a full sound studio is needed , just a quiet spot , as im comparing 2 images , recorded in the same inviroment , and only interested in whats differnt

the main thing is that you can see , how many octive , for each of the harmonics ,
also recording 1 inch away from 10 diddernt areas around your violins gives you a feel of where each note is coming from

a 10grand helliar copy with a lot of hiss in the back ground
DetaildiscriptionHellCopy.jpg
its just a matter of recording a sieres of notes ,sustained for 4 seconds each , play back the recordings with circFFt open and take a screen shot of the "voice" in any image soft ware , paste them next each other so you can compare them , the rings aound the out side are " double the DB " so the squiggles in the center arnt loud enough to make any differeance ,

firstviolinvoice.jpg
open strings of my first , clean back ground ( NO HUM) these were taken at first string up , and i thined out the bridge on the e-a side to raise there volume , the spikes are in the right places , and you see each octive produced for each note

thin and cold , sound link >http://www.instructables.com/files/o...PJGVXHA221.mp3
heaver stings made a huge differance , but you have to start some ware ,my first one was way too strong where the plates meet the ribs


playing the instaments back wards opens up alsorts of new things ( pumping sound into the body and recording the bridge movement )
i use the same PC's 1 for the hz , one too record the Phono head out put thats touching the bridge , un beatable for positioning of the sound post

[Baz1000]

Jeez, you lost me at "came across circFFt" Thank the Lord that I have John McLennan in my corner!

However, I will search for circFFt and see if my feeble brain comprehends.