Huon

[mandoman]

Define “works”
Everything from radiata to rosewood has been used for soundboards and produced an acceptable sound.

I think you have already defined it! It is tempting to ask you to define "acceptable sound" but I will resist since this is getting ridiculous. To me a tonewood is successful (i.e. it "works" or produces an "acceptable sound") if the instrument can be sold without too much trouble. Taking measurements of stiffness and weight will certainly help maintain consistency from instrument to instrument, which is important, but not every one likes the same thing. King Billy Pine does not measure particularly well in comparison to Spruce, but it sounds wonderful in mandolins, and the mandolins sell well (so it certainly does "work"). However, not every one likes the King Billy sound, so it is important to be able to offer something different (and it will measure differnet) that they do like. That Huon guitar I played should sell quickly, and my radiata mandolin has been sold so Huon and radiata do "work".

To those that don't sell their instruments for a living, sales is irrelevant, it just needs to sound good. And please don't ask me to define "sound good".

[WRB]

Well that is a revelation - had know idea that Radiata could be used in stringed instruments! Thinking about it, I imagine that most of the "Mountain Dulcimers" made in upstate new york would probably made from it (mine is made from BRW and Red Cedar )
I have only ever experienced radiata as the warped timber you buy very cheaply from Bunnings....

[woodturner777]

Yes Radiata can be used as a soundboard -blackwood - myrtle -Sasafrass- eucalyptus.
I think Bob Conner of the world famous A.N.Z.L.F. has used and tried most now this guy is a good luthier builds beautiful Weissenborn's and I have to say sorry to hear about your illness Bob, and I mean that, I do not believe it or not have anything against you. But I do know my woods work as soundboards or all my customers that use them and say they work, are bullshitting me.

[jeffhigh]

It’s a pity to see Woodturner777’s posts edited and niceified. I’d rather see them warts and all than have history rewritten.

[Baz1000]

Baz, no slur on your violins intended
Both myself and the OP were talking guitar soundboards which are a totally different situation to violins in size, arched construction versus thin flat plate, tailpiece versus pinned bridge, bowed versus plucked etc

No slur taken or imagined, and you are probably right regarding the differences. Viva la violin!!!

But thinking about it seriously, sound boards with a low MOE like Huon would definitely require heavier bracing when applied to flat tops. Quoting from a tonewood data source, Scot Wise has had success and explains it like this "Huon pine has a Golden Yellow hue with fine grain and aromatic rot resistant oils. The oils contain methyl eugenol which is responsible for the timber’s unique smell and resistance to rot. It is softer and heavier than spruce, requiring a fine balancing act in terms of thickness for strength yet thinness for weight.

Australian Luthier, Scott Wise has had good results with Huon and says: “Steel string guitars with smaller bodies tend to sound bigger in this wood. I first used it experimentally in the early 1980s and have had repeat orders based on the sound of those early guitars.”

"The tone of Huon Pine is restrained but with tremendous sustain and great richness and depth in the overtone content over all ranges. It has very similar qualities to New Zealand Kauri in terms of headroom and response. "

"Thickness for strength and thinness for weight" A balancing act indeed!

[RETIRED]

Well my comments have been deleted and tells me that I will be banned for 10 days as I am having a go at another forum, I don't think that i am, all i am doing is making a point, if i am banned this will be like being at School again as a wee laddie if you don't eat your dinner you can't have any pudding but sorry but you are not allowed to put your point across.
Excuse me i will crawl into the corner and cry . Cheers Bob

It is not often that I have a rant on this board but.........

Bob has been warned on numerous occasions that attacking the policies or members of another board is not on.

These warnings were given verbally over the phone and via this board in another thread.

It seems that some people just don't get it, slag another forum and there will be repercussions. In this case 10 days banning.

He received another 10 days for being a smart #### and having a go at a Moderator.

Read the rules Bob.

[WRB]

All sounded fine to me.
Sorry if starting this post has caused anybody any problems - not my original intent...

Warren

[jeffhigh]

Baz I don’t know Scott Wise but that is a very old quote reproduced everywhere Huon is discussed as a soundboard.
It would be interesting to know if he still holds Huon in high regard, there is no mention of it on his current website it is all spruce oriented

Yes it is a balancing act with a flattop soundboard
All my comments in this thread have related to MY methodology and preferences in building as clearly stated and others obviously have other tastes and opinions. We are all entitled to our opinions.
One man’s lovely warm guitar is another’s dull and subdued.
For me, to get the most responsive guitar I am looking to produce a lightweight soundboard with an appropriate stiffness and use a lightweight bridge on top of it.
If I get a piece of say engelmann spruce with a slightly lower MOE than sitka spruce I can make it a little thicker to compensate but with the lower density, the finished soundboard will weigh slightly less.
Same with western red cedar or King billy though the MOE is much less the reduced density helps keep the finished soundboard mass down.

Then you come to Huon, lower MOE and higher density and much higher cost
It just does not make sense for me

[Baz1000]

Baz I don’t know Scott Wise but that is a very old quote reproduced everywhere Huon is discussed as a soundboard.
It would be interesting to know if he still holds Huon in high regard, there is no mention of it on his current website it is all spruce oriented

Yes it is a balancing act with a flattop soundboard
All my comments in this thread have related to MY methodology and preferences in building as clearly stated and others obviously have other tastes and opinions. We are all entitled to our opinions.
One man’s lovely warm guitar is another’s dull and subdued.
For me, to get the most responsive guitar I am looking to produce a lightweight soundboard with an appropriate stiffness and use a lightweight bridge on top of it.
If I get a piece of say engelmann spruce with a slightly lower MOE than sitka spruce I can make it a little thicker to compensate but with the lower density, the finished soundboard will weigh slightly less.
Same with western red cedar or King billy though the MOE is much less the reduced density helps keep the finished soundboard mass down.

Then you come to Huon, lower MOE and higher density and much higher cost
It just does not make sense for me

Jeff, I now understand your concerns regarding Huon for guitar soundboards. The same concerns don't exist with the violin family for the reasons this thread has outlined. However, (and I ask this question to learn something about guitar tops), how much weight difference is there between a top with a density of 450 (say spruce) and another of 520 (Huon pine) with the same thickness of course.

[jeffhigh]

I don’t actually weigh finished soundboards.
Maybe I should but the active area in the lower bout would be around 325 diameter inside the lining so 0.0829m2 at 3mm thickness gives 0.0002487m3
At 450kg /m3 that area would be 112grams
At 520kg/m3 same thickness it would be 129grams
If however you compensated for the lower MOE of the Huon by increasing the thickness to give an equivalent stiffness you might be up to around 3.3mm or 142 grams
Doesn’t sound like a lot of difference, but I am using bridges of under 15 grams and englemann spruce of under 400 KG/m3

[Baz1000]

I don’t actually weigh finished soundboards.
Maybe I should but the active area in the lower bout would be around 325 diameter inside the lining so 0.0829m2 at 3mm thickness gives 0.0002487m3
At 450kg /m3 that area would be 112grams
At 520kg/m3 same thickness it would be 129grams
If however you compensated for the lower MOE of the Huon by increasing the thickness to give an equivalent stiffness you might be up to around 3.3mm or 142 grams
Doesn’t sound like a lot of difference, but I am using bridges of under 15 grams and englemann spruce of under 400 KG/m3

I get it. 30 grams in one instrument component is substantial. I am getting my spruce top violins to come in at 420 grams in total (including the chinrest), and striving to reduce that. When you consider the number of components in any stringed instrument (seventy something in a violin), weight matters.

The fact is that one of the most considerable differences in Stradivari to his peers was the lightness of his violins.

[mandoman]

Baz I don’t know Scott Wise but that is a very old quote reproduced everywhere Huon is discussed as a soundboard.
It would be interesting to know if he still holds Huon in high regard, there is no mention of it on his current website it is all spruce oriented

I do know Scott Wise, saw him just a few weeks ago. I spoke to him recently about Huon because I cut an old plank of Huon I have had for many years into guitar tops and was wondering if it was worth the effort and what to use for the back and sides. His opinion has not changed at all. Unfortunately I don't seem to have kept the original email, but I do recall he said "I love Huon Pine". So the quote may be old but is still valid. Scott is very experienced so is worth listening to. What he says about Huon is exactly how that Huon guitar I played sounded.

[jeffhigh]

Thanks for clarifying that Peter
If he is happy with the results that is what matters
I have just been very p d off that My first post on this thread which was heavily qualified with statements like “For MY objectives in building” led to Mr woodturner calling me a flat earther with a God complex among other derogatory drivel
Surely we can tolerate a diversity of opinion

[Baz1000]

Thanks for clarifying that Peter
If he is happy with the results that is what matters
I have just been very p d off that My first post on this thread which was heavily qualified with statements like “For MY objectives in building” led to Mr woodturner calling me a flat earther with a God complex among other derogatory drivel
Surely we can tolerate a diversity of opinion

Having an opinion is quite different to being opinionated. However, the variables that we deal with in wood, strings and other stuff on a daily basis is a breeding ground for opinions. Truth is, nothing is really what it seems. You can know the attributes of a piece of wood based on the science, but a little sap vein or a directional change in grain can have consequences on the end result that we really know little about.
I think that may be why there are so many myths about the renaissance makers. I wonder what Stradivari would have thought about Huon Pine.

[DarwinStrings]

, Houn is not a tone wood, far too oily. .

G'day Warren, I am not sure that "far too oily" stops a wood from being good for guitars, although not used for tops Cocobolo and BRW are both oily (not sure how oily compared to Huon but Cocobolo feels pretty oily) and do well as guitar woods.

Jim