Timber for saw handles?

[Sawdust Maker]

Have finally finished the little dovetail saw.

It's a 9" 19 ppi

dovetail saw_3472.jpgdovetail saw_3476.jpg

It is a real pleasure to use - now some practice to learn to cut straight

[IanW]

Looks great, Nick. Nothing like your own-made saw - not only does it look better, it will cut better than anything else!

Cheers,

[planemaker]

Very nice work Nick. The finish on the handle looks a treat. Stewie.

[Clinton1]

[Sawdust Maker]

There's been some progress on the 2nd two handles for the Gramercy carcase saws

gramercy handles_4354.jpg

[Sawdust Maker]

Somebody at the GTG on Sunday asked me what was in the Gramercy kit
So here's a piccy

Gramercy Carcase kit_4848.jpg

Blade, brass back, sawnuts and instructions

byo wood

[DSEL74]

If your using a one piece slotted spine what are all the holes along the top of the saw plate for??

[Sawdust Maker]

Grammercy suggests that as one way to cut the blade slot, you screw the blade (using those holes) to a thicknessed scrap of wood and slice away

I used a blade from a japanese pull saw as shown elsewhere in this thread

[surfdabbler]

Very nice looking handle. For the broken one, you could possibly down joint the piece back together. If it's a clean break, you will probably get an invisible join if you do it well, and the handle would then be stronger than straight wood. The grain direction on these saw handles has always made me suspicious.

Regarding the other option of the grain running up the handle, this would also make the little frilly bits very fragile, so would be a really bad idea. I remember reading about Viking longships... (stay with me here, it is relevant). They didn't have good jointing skills in their arsenal, so when dealing with joining the seats to the sides of the boat, they needed little angled pieces to go along under the seat, and bend 90 degrees to meet the side of the boat. They would cut these pieces from the stubs of branches, so that the grain will follow around the required bend. You could potentially do the same for saw handles, if you can get hold of a tree before it is milled. (told you it was relevant!) But then, you have the problem of the bad grain on the frilly bits, so maybe it's worse again.

Perhaps we should deliberately break the handles of saws, and then rejoin with an invisible dowel piece inside...

[IanW]

Surfdabbler, I think what you're suggesting is probably over-engineering to fix a very minor problem. At first blush, the grain direction of the grip on both saw handles, and rear handles of planes seems counter-intuitive. Of course, it's actually a compromise, worked out long before you or I ever thought about it. In the case of saws, the orientation is not so much to get it right in the 'frilly' bits (it's more a case of the frilly bits taking advantage of the best grain orientation), but to have it running straight between the grip & cheeks which is where the power transmission between hand & blade occurs. Imagine a saw handle with the grain running through the grip, you would have short grain right across the weakest point, & I think it would snap at this point on the first stroke!

Now plane totes are reinforced (or more accurately, pre-stressed) by a steel stud that goes right through the guts, so they should be far less likely to break across the grip, and in normal use, I guess that's borne out - there are many planes 100 plus years old that still have intact, original totes. Broken horns are pretty common on both types of handle, despite the grain optimisation - it's just a very exposed bit of wood. However, I reckon I've seen 20 or more split grips on plane totes for every split saw handle I've encountered. They most certainly occur, but perhaps a lot less commonly than you might think? I can suggest a couple of reasons for that, & perhaps the most obvious is the type of accident a plane tote cops. If a plane falls in a way that the tote bears the brunt of the impact, with all the weight of that metal body behind it, something is more likely to give.

Saws certainly get dropped and suffer from other accidents, the broken horns & other dings you see testify to that, but what surprises me is how (relatively) infrequently you come across older saws which have broken across the grip. Even more surprisingly, that silly little bit of wood connecting the bottom of the grip to the cheeks is usually in pretty good shape. Now there's a bit of 'bad' engineering if ever there was! We have a thin tongue of wood, which usually has the shortest grain right smack in the middle where it's most likely to get whacked into a piece of wood, yet I've not seen it broken on all that many old saws, & those I have seen usually bear many other scars of a very hard life. Go figure, as our cousins over the Pacific say.

I suggest that if you choose appropriate woods for saw handles, and stick to 'traditional' layout & sensible dimensions for the critical sections, & take a little bit of care with your saws, you won't have too many problems. Of course, if you are in the habit of regularly hurling your saws against the walls in frustration (rather tempting at times! ), that's a different mater.....

Cheers,

[surfdabbler]

Me? Over engineer something? NEVER!

[Bushmiller]

Have finally finished the little dovetail saw.

It's a 9" 19 ppi

dovetail saw_3472.jpgdovetail saw_3476.jpg

It is a real pleasure to use - now some practice to learn to cut straight

Nick

I am always wary of using the word "cute," but I think there is definitely a case for it here 'cos that saw is cute .

I have the problem coming up of choice of tote timbers so I have followed this thread with interest. In particular I love the handles that Ian (and now you too) have made from the "Oaks" and I suspect many of the Wattles also, such as Gidgee, would perform well. Always the problem here is obtaining those timbers defect free in suitable sizes. The trees often aren't large to start with and frequently have small defects, just enough to make them vulnerable, prohibiting their use for this purpose. This becomes even more difficult with full size saws as opposed to the tenon and dovetail models.

To my mind there is a dilemma between suitability, figure and availability. Ian, I know, looks for tight grained timber preferably with small, if that is the right description, figure so the Casuarina oaks fit this bill very well indeed. The advantage of these timbers is that no staining is required so you can rub away with the finishing process without fear of going through the stain.

However, the traditional preferred timbers, which seem to be Apple and Beech in that order, were very plain and I assume were selected for their resistance to splitting, their close grain and easy workability. So some decoration was in order and that would be a combination of colouring and the ubiquitous wheat carving for the more expensive models.

Occasionally Rosewood or Mahogany were used for handles at the upper end of the ranges with or without carving.

Regards
Paul

[IanW]

Paul, I reckon we are spoilt for choice when it comes to handle woods in our part of the world, there are dozens of woods that are potentially useful. I think you are spot-on when you suggested that Apple was chosen for its combination of looks, workability & toughness. Lots of woods can beat it on any one of these features, but few woods could beat it on all three counts. If I could only get my hands on some decent supplies, I would use it, too, but it's not exactly a common tree in the subtropics! All of the woods you mention are good, but as you say, it's hard to get sound pieces of the dry-country Acacias in sizes suitable for hand saws. I've made quite a few pistol-type handles from Gidgee & Mulga, but you can squeeze one of those from a pretty small piece of wood.

If you want a wood to carve, there are a few options I can think of. Straight-grained Qld Walnut could be good (though it's one of those edge-dulling woods), and Qld Maple ditto. But a wood that has a fine grain & a consistency not unlike Apple, that grows out your way, is Wilga (Geijera parviflora). It is a very pale wood, but can have an interesting grain pattern. Unfortunately, it doesn't make very big trees either, so you may have to search hard to find a suitable specimen for handle raw material....

Cheers,

[Bushmiller]

Paul, I reckon we are spoilt for choice when it comes to handle woods in our part of the world, there are dozens of woods that are potentially useful. I think you are spot-on when you suggested that Apple was chosen for its combination of looks, workability & toughness. Lots of woods can beat it on any one of these features, but few woods could beat it on all three counts. If I could only get my hands on some decent supplies, I would use it, too, but it's not exactly a common tree in the subtropics! All of the woods you mention are good, but as you say, it's hard to get sound pieces of the dry-country Acacias in sizes suitable for hand saws. I've made quite a few pistol-type handles from Gidgee & Mulga, but you can squeeze one of those from a pretty small piece of wood.

If you want a wood to carve, there are a few options I can think of. Straight-grained Qld Walnut could be good (though it's one of those edge-dulling woods), and Qld Maple ditto. But a wood that has a fine grain & a consistency not unlike Apple, that grows out your way, is Wilga (Geijera parviflora). It is a very pale wood, but can have an interesting grain pattern. Unfortunately, it doesn't make very big trees either, so you may have to search hard to find a suitable specimen for handle raw material....

Cheers,

Ian

I'll have to get the timber scouts a scouting .

Regards
Paul

[Sawdust Maker]

Bushy

Can't say I've ever thought of any of my tools as cute
but I am pleased with the way this one turned out

The other two handles are taking a bit of time as I'm doing them whilst sitting around at my son's training and at the same time playing with the Disston and the Francis Wood handles

Ian

I'll have to get the timber scouts a scouting .

Regards
Paul

I'm looking at a bit of Qld Walnut and maybe some Mackay Cedar for a couple of those handsaws I've acquired. Some of those handles can only be described as fugly, let alone not very comfortable to grip.
I want to try and make one of those fancy handles with lambs tongue etc

And if you find anything nice let me know, we might be able to do a deal




Ian

Thanks very much for your insightful comments
muchly appreciated