Studs on brick question

[groeneaj]

Hi all,
I'm in the process of transforming my garage into my workshop. I've got treated pine studs (70mmx35mm) that will be bolted into the brick so I can then screw plywood sheets on the wall. I also have sound absorbing panels that will be placed between the studs. The manufacturer states that are unaffected by water. The workshop is double brick and all studs will be attached on the internal brick work. There is a cavity between the brick also.

Now my question is, do I need have a vapour barrier between the studs/sound absorbing panels and brick?

Thankyou.

Cheers,
Andy.

[rwbuild]

Technically, no because you have a cavity wall which is ventilated through the external brick

[groeneaj]

Thanks. I'm slowly chipping away getting the workshop sorted, floors are almost done then I'll start work on the walls. I was really hoping I didn't have to put a vapour barrier up so hopefully the air flow in the cavity is sufficient as you say.

Cheers

[groeneaj]

I got a few more questions regarding the pine studs on the brick wall.

I'm going with plywood panels for the wall (2400mm x 1220mm x 18mm). As the studs are not for structural purposes, do you think I could lay out the studs 1220mm on centre? Or do you think if I were to attach any sort of cabinet etc I'll potentially run the risk of weakening the plywood?

And my last question is how do you accurately bolt dynabolts through stud walls into brick? I plan to pre drill through the studs and use that hole as a guide to drill for the dynabolts. Anyone got any tips to make it a pain free job? I need to do quite a few of them so any tips would help. I plan to use 3 dynabolts (10mm x 75mm) on each stud (2800mm x 75mm x 35mm). Would 3 be enough or do I need more?

Thanks

[Sir Stinkalot]

The thickness of your plywood at 18mm would be fairly stiff which supports your case for increased stud distances. Perhaps do a test and attach your 75x35 studs to a sheet of your ply and check to see if you think the flex is acceptable. If it were me, and I was planning on hanging cabinets and the like off the ply I would be inclined to over engineer and do 600mm centres.

Personally I hate using dynabolts (more so as I always manage to stuff them up) so I would rethink bolting the studs to the brick individually. If you are using top and bottom plates for your stud walls would it be possible to dynabolt the bottom plate to the slab (just in a few places) and then perhaps a 90deg metal bracket to attach the top plate to the brick if you feel it is not sufficiently supported by the bottom plate alone.

[groeneaj]

Thanks for the reply mate.

To be honest, I'm not sold on using dynabolts either but thought they would be the strongest method available.

To clarify your suggestion, are you saying have one stud on the length of the floor and above, then using brackets to house the studs?

Cheers.

[rwbuild]

Use masonry screw bolts, you drill a pilot hole into the concrete and or bricks then screw the bolt into the pilot hole. They are made by Ramset, lengths from 50mm upwards and 10mm, 12mm, 16mm, 20mm, 25mm.

When anchoring into bricks, check first if you have a stray brick around that matches the wall and from that you will see where the extrusion holes are in the bricks but locate the hole at the thickest portion of the brick. These bolts will not work in the joints.
Another method which I prefer for brickwork is to use the Shuredrive that Ramset make and very similar to the nylon drive pin anchor but the barrel is bi-metal). The y are extremely good, use them to anchor a metal bracket to the brickwork beside your studs and screw the studs to the bracket. One bracket top and middle of each stud and dyna bolt the bottom plate to the floor or RediDrive pins (they have a deformed crank of about 2mm to 3mm at the end and come in varying lengths to suit what you are fixing through, simply drill a pilot hole and drive in with a lump hammer, make sure everything is in the correct position first because once they are driven in, you cannot get them out again.

The following links are for each product

Ramset Australia

Ramset Australia

Ramset Australia

Ramset Australia

[Sir Stinkalot]

To clarify your suggestion, are you saying have one stud on the length of the floor and above, then using brackets to house the studs?

Perhaps there is a little mix up in the terminology being used. When you were referring to studs I envisaged that you were creating a stud wall which has a top and bottom plate (running horizontally) and studs running vertically between the top and bottom plate (even noggings as well).

I have the feeling now that you intend to use the 70x35 in more of a batten fashion where each is individually bolted to the brick.

Either option would work. Personally I would try and avoid having to place any more fixtures into the brickwork than absolutely necessary. To do this I would look at creating a stud wall frame on the ground and then standing it in position (making it easier to keep the right spacing for your sound absorbing panels). I would fix the bottom plate to the slab (Ray has provided a good response on the different fixture options), and then secure a metal bracket to brick next to the vertical studs which will allow a simple screw connection between the timber stud and the bracket.

Given the stud wall is now a frame itself I wouldn't think that you would need to secure every stud to the brickwork with the brackets (as you would with the individual batten option). Depending on how long the wall is that you are lining you may be able to get away with only a few brackets to ensure that the stud frame doesn't fall forward. By doing the stud wall option you will also have a nice and level surface to attach your ply to. Attaching individual battens to the brick work you may find some issues with any irregularity of the brickwork, which although shouldn't be too significant may be reflected in the joints between the ply.

It looks like Ramset have quite a few alternatives to the dynabolt. Last weekend I had to install 18 dynabolts in a brickwork wall to attach some shelving brackets for my sister. This is a job I hate doing but I managed to get all 18 in without one stuff up which was surprising for me given I had to get three in perfect alignment to suit the predrilled brackets. A quick look at the Ramset site would indicate there would be easier alternatives out there.

One question - you mentioned that the studs are 2800mm. With the 2400x1220 ply which dimension were you planning to have running vertically. From my experience lining the shed you want to have support behind the ply joints which is where a nogging in the stud wall frame would be useful.

[The Bleeder]

Andy,

I think I've got what you are planning. Vertical battens attached to the internal brick wall with dynabolt/anchor screws... (quiet a few of them obviously)

Are you doing both sides of the garage? Is there a ceiling or exposed rafters?

I'm with Sir Stinkalot on this one.

If doing both sides I would build stud walls anchoring the bottom plate to the slab. Then attaching the top plate to the current rafters.

Then I would put in a 'false' rafter between the two top plates. (nail the false rafter to the existing rafter)

This will reduce the amount of stress placed on the internal brick wall.

The cost of the extra timber will be offset by not having to buy so many fixings for the studs to the brick wall.

[groeneaj]

Thanks for the help so far.

To clarify, I had planned to attach/bolt the studs with the widest face against the wall. Then screw the plywood to the studs, but as mentioned the plywood is only 2400mm so I'll need to rip 400mm sized plywood to make up the 2800mm height of the bricks. There is two walls that need to be done.
But I knew there would be a better way to go about this which is why I asked.

I'll look into the fasteners and see what is available. I think I understand what has been said. Essentially make a studded wall and bolt the bottom to the concrete, but not sure if I can simply screw the top to anything?

Here are some photos to hopefully make it clear.

Thankyou.

[rwbuild]

Photos,don't you just love them!!!!!!!!!! a picture tells a thousand words

Forget the studs, just screw fix or ShureDrive or one of the suitable preferred anchors, the 18mm ply straight to the brickwork

The bricks look like a PGH solid sandstock which is usually on the soft side in brick terms or at the worst a 3 hole extruded sandstock

[Sir Stinkalot]

Ray .... the stud thickness is required for the acoustic batts so directly attaching the ply to the brickwork knocks out that requirement.

I agree .... photos are much easier

[groeneaj]

The acoustic panels are 25mm thick x 600mm x 1200mm which need studs to install them correctly.

So if I bolted the bottom plate, what do you suggest for the top plate?

Thanks

[rwbuild]

Ray .... the stud thickness is required for the acoustic batts so directly attaching the ply to the brickwork knocks out that requirement.

I agree .... photos are much easier

Problem solver


http://www.boral.com.au/brochures/or...y=Plasterboard

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Regardless of whether you're using studs or not, I strongly recommend placing sisalation against the brickwork first, esp. when working on an external wall. (Blue side facing the bricks!)

It's cheap enough and, although you don't technically need it, it's better to "over-engineer" than sit on min. specs, y'know?

For similar reasons I believe it to be a sensible move to use battens or studs to create an air-gap (or insulative gap) between the brick face and your panels... fastening the panels directly to the face-work is much more likely to develop serious problems further down the line if - for some reason - moisture does form on the bricks.

"Do it once. Do it properly."