abused chisels - worth a punt?

[Clinton1]

I see some secondhand Japanese chisels come up for sale now and again that have been sharpened so that the hollow on the back has been ground out.

A typical example is the pics below.

Basically it looks like its been sharpened with 'western' back flattening in mind, rather than doing uradashi (the hammering/pecking of the cutting edge) as needed.

Other than the fact that it 'looks wrong' with no hollow on the back, and possible tempering issues if a power grinder was used, I'm worried that too much steel may have been abraded off the back.
I can see the lamination on the bevel, however without abrading the sides of the chisel I can't tell how much steel is left back behind the bevel.

These are not cheap new chinese junk, but not top drawer Japanese makers either.

Worth a punt at between $10 - $??? each, or does something scream 'wrong!'?


ura.JPG
$_3.JPG

[Godfrey]

I would give them a miss on principle but I'm not a Japanese chisel user and may be missing something.

[elanjacobs]

Well, seeing that the hollow on the back is still there at the handle end, I'd say that the flattening would taper from the cutting edge back, so the amount of hard steel left would increase the further back you go.
I don't think there's any way to tell about loss of tempering, but any dark lines/voids/cracks along the lamination line could suggest something's not quite right.

It'd be hit and miss, but I think you could pick up some decent tools.

[NeilS]

Clinton - others may not admit to it, but many of us have nomi that have ura that look no better than that.

I have one that is worse, which I sent to So-san along with my Nakayama stone for appraisal (ie. of the stone, not the chisel). He returned it sharpened to a level it had probably never seen and I have kept it as my benchmark blade against which I judge my progress.

fujihiro4.jpg
Fujihiro ura

He rated the previous owner as "above average, but not a master" sharpener. I would rate the previous owner of that chisel that you have shown as below average.

The advantage of a more substantial ura is that it requires less time/effort to sharpen, there being less metal area to be worked to get the edge sharp again. Besides the aesthetics, an almost obliterated ura tells you that it has been in the hands of a less skilled sharpener, and by inference in the hands of someone who may not have seen the value in purchasing a tool from the best bladesmiths.

But you can't always judge a chisel by its previous owner!

I have chisels that range from new Tasai down to a heap of unknowns (unreadable kanji) that I picked up off internet a few years ago now. Among the bargain basement purchases are a couple of very good ones, worth may times more than I paid for them, while the majority are about right for what I paid, plus a couple of duds. It is a bit of a lucky dip, but we need to accept that the dip won't include any unrecognised Tasais! The best blades are only purchased by those who know their value, and they just don't end up way undervalued on eBay.

Whether buying at auction off internet is 'worth' it for such tools depends on individual temperament. In hindsight, I would have probably been better off paying just a bit more and getting fewer but predictably good, but not necessarily top quality, blades. But, then I would have missed the fun of the chase!

As for that particular blade Clinton, without being able to use it you won't know how good the steel is, but looking at the pics it has a lot of cutting steel left. I notice that it has a some pinholes on the ura side, none near the cutting edge, but it is possible that a lot of the steel was removed from the ura side to remove deep corrosion to make it more presentable for sale. If the steel is OK, that chisel still has years of use in it. Your just going have to spend more time and effort on sharpening the ura side, unless you grind out more of the ura. Shock! Horror.... Yep, that's how the ura got there in the first place, albeit before it was tempered. But, not with a dry bench grinder! A wet grinder like this is used for that...

Japanese grinding wheel for Ura used by ishido6.jpg

Some careful grinding on something like a Tormek could work. It doesn't have to be pretty.

[Clinton1]

Thanks blokes, I think I'll take a punt.

I've got some good Japanese chisels, some middle of the road and some 'department store starter chisels''.
I'm not thinking I'll unearth treasure, but some more middle of the road ones would be welcome.
The concern is that too much steel will have been removed at the handle end, making the tool unbalanced with respect to the iron/steel ratio.

We'll see.