Sparks/Slag/Molten metal when stick welding...how far away is safe?

[abitfishy]

Hey all,

Bought myself a cheap CIG 140 Turbo stick welder and will soon be ready to lay my first bead. One question I have which I can't seem to find any info on (even though its a pretty simple question) is that I will be welding in my front yard (don't worry, we live up a right of way so I won't blind the neighbours) but what sort of distance will I need to be away from the car/house so as to not damage the paintwork etc with sparks/slag/molten metal? I know it can depend on how bad a welder I am (think BAD to start LOL), but lets say generally speaking? I see youtube vids of people obviously welding in their workshop so I assume there is stuff around them not too far away but its never obvious.

Thanks!

[Master Splinter]

I'd say that (for a small home welder) 80% of any sparks hit the ground within about a half meter, 99% within a meter, but occasionally (more so with dirty/rusty metal and high amperage) some will make an amazing break for freedom.

It's always that single spark that lands in the bucket of old oily rags that causes the problem!

[Dingo Dog]

Have a good look around before you strike an ark. Check the ground, dead grass, rags, paper etc. If grass is dead, wet it first before welding. Have a bucket of water ready, remove anything that pose's a threat to ignite.

Have done welding outside when starting off myself and learnt very quickly that dry grass underneath a 6 metre alloy boat catches fire vey quickly when repairing with a mig.

Before I start any welding activity either in the shed or outside, I have a good look around, remove anything that will catch fire quickly, paper, rags, oil, lawn mower fuel etc to a safe distance, usually to the other shed. I wet down the grass where the sparks will fall then set up.

DD

[BobL]

Good advice given above. You can also consider setting up some screens if you don't want sparks to enter a specific area. Screens can be made of anything non-flammable and can be placed on floor standing stands or suspended from a wire. A sheet of corrugated iron is a pretty good screen.

If you want to get really fancy then something like a welding booth complete with an extraction fan to remove fumes.
This is a welding booth I made for my shed as I don't have much space and have to weld and grind quite close to other machinery.
The whole thing is suspended above my welding bench.
My screens are made of Dexion Shelving and can be folded back or completely removed if required.
It has a light and a speed adjustable fan with a max of ~1600 CFM that fair rips the welding fumes out of the booth/shed.


A full description of this fume hood is in my SHED BUILD thread starting at https://www.woodworkforums.com/f245/b...ml#post1497164
and goes through to post #295

[Legion]

I'd definitely move the car, but not worry too much about the house.

I've done way more damage to e.g. metal fences and things from grinding sparks/grinding dust that eventually rusts than from immediate welding sparks. I mean, I even occasionally weld overhead if I have to without much trouble except the occasional burn (but I anticipate them). That's not to say it's not an issue, but it's less of an issue than you're worried about. As others say, some basic precautions and a contingency plan (hose or bucket, preferably not tipped over your electrical equipment) and you'll be right. Wear good clothes (I wear overalls and leathers as required, good boots, good gloves), prep your work (remove rust and galv), think about where your grind is heading, keep your arc short and the right temperature. Wear safety glasses even under your helmet. Don't clean slag too soon and keep your glasses on (and sometimes your helmet helps if it's auto darkening) when you do.

As an example, I built a fairly complex trailer recently in the front (concrete) driveway. Grinding dust and rod stubs everywhere (still need to clean them up) but no damage issues. If you search my recent posts there's probably a picture with the trailer and clearance to the fence.

I also weld over green grass often. I just throw down a small sheet of ecoply I picked up from a verge. The ply occasionally smoulders if I put freshly welded work directly on it, otherwise it's fine. The grass only burns if I grind and throw sparks into it.

In the beginning be more careful of burning yourself through work practices. The only time I burnt myself is from taking off my gloves and picking up work too soon. Slow down and think about where you put your work, electrode, earth clamp, fresh rod stubs, etc. A couple of galvanised buckets are good for transporting things around and throwing scrap into to cool. Think before you pick things up, especially if you're always putting on and taking off gloves. Think about where you're leaning and how you're bracing yourself. Avoiding heat becomes automatic, but I still occasionally find myself getting warm when I accidentally brace against a recently welded area.

[Legion]

There's the trailer. Note the dry leaves and fence and other crap behind. Never an issue.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2hfigyf.jpg

My expensive inverter welder might weld a little bit nicer, some of the experts might be able to discuss that, but I still ran some hot beads, in the 90A range with 2.6mm rods. So as messy as I would get with 3mm material. I'd agree with Master Splinter's distance estimation.

[KBs PensNmore]

I would allow about 4 metres from anything flammable, and 6metres for the car, windscreens and weld spatter/grinding sparks do not mix. DAMHIKT
I had a forklift battery (being charged) explode at 7 metres from a welding bay.
Kryn

[Gavin Newman]

You'll find that the bulk of the sparks and slag will only go as far as inside your boots where they will be extinguished by your skin.

[wheelinround]

All great advice one thing left out is have an observer as you may not have the sight of fire started, time to grab the hose and even tho you may be away from others others get inquisitive and a welding flash even in day light conditions can do damage, distract others causing accidents.

[KBs PensNmore]

Regarding welding flash, feels like an eye full of sand, (usually shows up about 3.00 am when you can't get to Drs) some milk in the eyes usually helps you get back to sleep. Use an eye wash dish, its the butterfat in the milk that puts a lining on the eye.
Kryn

[abitfishy]

Thanks everyone, sorry I took a while to get back on. I got notification of the first reply, didn't think I'd have so many more helpful people reply afterwards!

I'm very keen to start welding as I tend to play around with old boats/trailers etc and its just a skill I've been wanting for a few years now.

All great info that I was pretty much planning on....particularly moving anything away flammable and having a hose with trigger nozzle running nearby (but without leaks, I don't want to end up standing in water). Was also thinking of a small screen nearby for a bit more protection for surrounding items but wasn't sure if I could treat ply or something but never thought of corrugated iron (or could use colorbond I guess), thought of tracking down a cheap room partition and screwing it to that.

I was not sure about requiring a leather/proban hood that I have seen for welding but I am starting to think they are more for overhead welding. I have steel capped boots, 100% cotton jeans and 100% cotton long sleeve shirt (was planning on buying overalls but for $10 from salvos the jeans and shirt won!) and will be wearing a leather welders apron and BOC Premium leather welders gauntlet gloves. I have some respirators for when I'm welding gal (and/or can grind it off first and treat with cold gal after) and have safety glasses but wasn't sure if they were needed as well as a helmet but will use them on your advice. With so many helmets what should I use? Are any of those 9-13 shade auto darkening helmets ok? I saw the 'Rossi' (from that AGR mob!!) cheaply but read it 'exceeds Australian/CE standards) which I read as 'we say it exceeds the standards but doesn't actually have Australian standard approval and we all know AGR are so trustworthy!!!)

Yes, I will have to tread carefully with leaning on the work, picking things up etc, but I think I will only make the mistake once!!!

Legion, nice trailer, I occasionally get an old boat trailer I want to convert into a trailer to carry a few kayaks so these skills will come in handy.

Thanks all!!

[Legion]

Re the helmet, I have a Miller Digital Elite that I bought from America for ~$300. Single best welding purchase I've made, I reckon. It's foolproof, except when I forget to turn it on (but even then it's got UV filters so you should minimise flash burns). The X-mode means I can weld outside in the sun and it only triggers from an arc (except occasionally when you go from looking down to looking directly at the sun, but it fixes itself pretty quickly). Other manufacturers might offer similar helmets. You get what you pay for. I'd rather have a fixed shade $20 helmet than a $100 Chinese auto helmet.

I don't like wearing safety glasses, but I have had grinding sparks and slag find its way underneath my helmet and have been grateful for the glasses at those times.

I don't like wearing my leather jacket, but the tradeoff is getting burnt on the arms and upper body. There have been some days approaching 40C when I've welded without it and got burnt, mostly from overhead or horizontal welding. Same with a leather hood. I don't wear one, but there are times when I wish I did (overhead). I don't have much hair and it's cut short so I just get a burnt scalp, but if you had long hair you could definitely start a fire up there welding overhead. My overalls are full of pinholes, but I kind of anticipate it and am ready to deal with it. I figure the worst injuries are more likely to come from other things, like electric shock or sustained burns from hot rods or hot work. Spark burns and dripping slag you can deal with and avoid or minimise.

If you wear jeans and shirt, don't tuck the shirt in, otherwise stuff could fall down the tuck join.

If you weld duragal or supagal, you don't need to grind and if you're outside you don't need a respirator, just a fan (or hold your breath/avoid the fumes for short runs). I do this all the time but all my welding is outside. If you weld hot dipped galv, grind it hard to remove all the zinc. I use both grinding wheels and flap discs depending on how the grinder is currently set up. Grind until it sparks yellow. Otherwise, welding the zinc coating sucks and is nearly impossible (for me) and throws a million sparks and refuses to weld properly. Basically a waste of time.

Using ply I can smell pretty quickly if I'm starting a fire, so I like that. I can also test heat. If it's hot enough to smoulder the wood it's hot enough to burn me through the gloves within a couple of seconds. If you want screens, just use something cheap or free that you have lying around.

Other best tips I've got from this forum - I used to use a piece of scrap that I would quick clamp right near the weld site. Restarting a rod I would scratch it along the scrap to remove the flux slag off the end and then quickly transfer to the weld. But I got a better tip - a file. I just carry it around and scratch off the slag and then every single restart is like a brand new rod, every time. Great tip, whoever mentioned it.

The best thing you can do is just start welding on some scrap. You'll figure it out and just come back and ask dumb questions (like I have, many times) when you need to. You're definitely going about it the right way, but e.g. some people weld in shorts and thongs, some people don't wear gloves, some people don't wear a helmet when tacking. I'm sure I've welded a quick thing or two without a left glove, and I did a couple of inch long welds once in shorts to test something (and burnt my leg with sparks). Point is, you don't need to spend $1000 on safety gear before you weld. Helmet, gloves, boots and weld some scrap in a clear space and you'll quickly work out what it's all about.

[Gavin Newman]

Re the helmet, I have a Miller Digital Elite that I bought from America for ~$300. Single best welding purchase I've made, I reckon. It's foolproof, except when I forget to turn it on (but even then it's got UV filters so you should minimise flash burns). The X-mode means I can weld outside in the sun and it only triggers from an arc (except occasionally when you go from looking down to looking directly at the sun, but it fixes itself pretty quickly).

I back Legion on the Miller helmet. I have one that I keep reserved for TIG, the X-Mode which triggers off the RF from the arc rather than the light is brilliant at low amps and when driving the pedal.

I can also recommend the Speedglass 9100XX with the large view-port. I use one for all my stick and MIG work and wouldn't be without it.

Money spent on a good helmet is never wasted.

[abitfishy]

Thanks for more help.

Wow, not a chance I can invest in one of those helmets just yet for the small hobby use I'll be getting out of the welder. Is there a midway alternative? CIGWELD, Boss and Hampdon do a few under $150, are they all no good? Doesn't seem to be much in between the $100 and the $600 that I can find......

[Legion]

The alternative, like I started with, is the $20 fixed helmet and clamp some scrap right next to the work. Start the arc on the scrap then quickly transfer to the work. Once the arc is started, you only need a fixed shade. Problem for me was I do lots of very short welds on very small work (e.g. lots of 25mm SHS). So without an auto helmet, it was hard to strike in the right spot without completely missing the work since you're striking blind with a fixed helmet. On large work that's not a problem, you just strike nearby and quickly move to the weld and no harm done except a bit of cleanup. But on 25mm SHS you are likely to fall off the side and break the arc etc so you just end up with a mess that needs cleanup. It didn't take long before I decided to spring for the $$$ helmet and the Digital Elite had the feature (X-mode) that I knew I'd use the most.

I'm not sure about the $100 Chinese auto helmet specials. From what I've read, they have a high rate of failure (in that they don't darken appropriately or too slow or whatever). It's enough for me to avoid them and if my helmet breaks I'm happy enough with it that I'll buy another. Also, the more $$$ helmets have more features than cheaper ones, like more sensors to avoid false negatives and adjustable delay and adjustable sensitivity and mine has three other modes (regular auto mode, grinding mode, cutting mode). Eyes are pretty important and seeing what you're doing made a massive difference to me.

Probably you can make do with a cheap helmet and then if you find a big project coming up, use that to justify a purchase and factor it in. E.g. I used that trailer to justify a pipe bender and notcher. And right after the project finished a Dynasty 200 DX. To get the trailer custom made for me would have cost more than I put in including the tools.

I've used other projects to justify a horizontal adjustable bandsaw (great tool if you find yourself getting into metalwork), speed clamps, Triton multistands, assorted hand power tools, Swanson square, Starrett protractor, 1000 other tools.