Nomi Ura Aesthetics, Sharpening and a Veritas Honing Guide

[thumbsucker]

In recent months I have taken the plunge into exploring Japanese chisels. After long consideration I have four Ooichi chisels from Stu. At this point I have set the hoops, flattened their backs, sharpened them a few times and tried them out a variety of timbers, cutting mostly M&T joints.

Up to this point I have used western chisels and have like many I have used a Veritas MK2 Honing Guide to sharpen them. My process when sharpening western chisels was to set the chisel into the guide with the correct projection with the registration jig and then to form a burr on #800 sigma, then keeping the chisel in the guide I would turn the chisel/guide upside down so the bevel/wheel is facing up - I would then remove the burr on my #12000 sigma running the clamp bar of the guide along the edge of the stone.

In short I remove the burr at every grit level. I believe this is a very standard method.

This means that I can set the blade up once in the guide and then step through the grits until I have a sharp chisel.

However a nomi has an aesthetic consideration, that of maintaining a pleasing ura. Now if I am to use the same method that I have used for western chisels my nomi ura becomes misshapen. Because only half of the nomi ura is projecting out of the honing guide when I go to remove the burr on my #1200 stone, I have found that the hollow of the ura is narrower on the front 1/2 length of the nomi, as this is the half that projects out of the guide the other half of the ura being buried within the guide itself. In a single sharpening the ura recesses is maybe 1/20 of a mm narrower however in 20 sharpening its a whole millimeter out. There is also the other factor in short that the leading half of the chisel would be lower/thinner then the trailing 1/2. Again minor but the offset would get progressively larger over time.

Now the question is how do I deal with this:

1- Live with it and have a poor form Ura?

2- Remove the nomi from the honing guide every time I wish to remove the burr. This is tiresome, I have a #800, #1000, #2000, #6000, #8000, & #12000 grit stones this means for every chisel I would have to set up the chisel in the guide six times. There is also a problem with this approach, the registration jig stop is metal, and the brittle hagane steel of the nomi is prone to chipping when it comes in contact with the metal stop, you can hear it chip. I have thought of affixing a thin plastic shim to the stop.

3- Establish the bevel using the guide so that the edge is true and square and then remove all chips and nicks using the #800 stone. Then remove the chisel from the guide and sharpen freehand. Since I have sigma stones and because Japanese bevels are flat, I have found that I can balance the bevel on the stone, then with 5 to 10 pull strokes along the full length of the stone I can turn a burr. This approach works however I am the weakest link in this method as I am not a fan of freehand sharpening. The edge I get from this approach is a little sub-par.

4- This has been my latest approach. I use the guide to sharpen however I use a rag to pull the burr off. Much like the old timers would strop a tool on their pants. I find this removes 95% of the burr, allowing me to move to the next grit.

I know that some people only remove the burr once at the very end, however I feel that this causes a massive burr to built up through the grits and that when removed the large burr rips a ragged edge. In contrast removing the burr at every grit mitigates this to a large extent.

How have others who use Japanese chisel dealt with this aesthetic consideration?

[Sheets]

Hi thumbsucker,

For your situation (using a honing guide - and I understand why you want to), I would suggest that, after the back is flat from your initial set-up, it will remain flat, so taking the ura to the stone subsequently is only to keep the edge from reaching it over several sharpenings. If you grind/polish the ura after each grit, whether free-hand or not, you are needlessly removing metal (in this case, just to chase the burr). So, after you've fixed the blade into the guide, you can go through all your grits leaving the burr to the end.

I would argue that "pulling off" (ie., breaking it off) the burr at any stage is not good for keeping a sharp edge. It means more time needed on the following stone to fix the damage done to the edge when the burr is removed. The burr, in my experience, gets finer with finer stones where its attached to the edge, so really only needs to be removed after your last finish stone, in which case you remove the guide and use the finish stone on the ura free-hand until the burr is polished off (falls off naturally, rather than broken off). You may need to alternate sides a few times. By the way, in my readings and instruction, this method is "standard" for Japanese tools.

Although this method goes against your belief in dealing with burr, it will allow you to switch stones without having to remove the guide each time, so should remain efficient time-wise. It will also save you removing hard steel off the ura until necessary.

Steve

[NeilS]

+1 to Steve's post.

I would just add that going through all those grit sizes (#800, #1000, #2000, #6000, #8000, & #12000) every time to put a working edge back on a blade seems excessive to me. Good for preparing a blade for the first time or rehabbing after a chip, otherwise I would be touching up the edge more frequently with just the higher grit stones.

BTW, I find a 30x magnification loupe valuable for inspecting an edge while sharpening to determine progress back to sharp again.

So Yamashita recommends the use of a sharpening jig by the novice sharpener as a way of learning what a flat blade bevel and ura should look like, but expects with practice that we graduate to freehand sharpening.

Neil

[thumbsucker]

Hi Steve - I will give your guidance a try. Can you give me any directions to articles or videos that illustrate the "standard" method for Japanese tools?

Neil I have tried only honing from #6000, but most of the times I often find micro chips that ruin my edge. I find its just more foolproof to start at #800 as it guaranties that my edge is in its best possible starting condition. Also with the Sigma stones it takes 10 strokes and I turn the burr. It therefore takes me less then 4 minutes to restore the complete edge. I am probably wasting a little bit of steel but its just my OCD coming through.

A 30x magnification loupe has been on my buy list for ages.

Excuse my ignorance but who is Yamashita?When it comes to Japanese tools I am a real newbie.

[Evanism]

Des Kings Shoji and Kumiko book talks in minutae about sharpening Kanna blades, ura management and tapping out to maintain it.

He also discusses at length the management of the back with several warnings.

Great book, great read and highly addictive.

[Gabriel]

Excuse my ignorance but who is Yamashita?When it comes to Japanese tools I am a real newbie.

G'day Thumbsucker,

Although I'm not going to actually answer any questions on sharpening, as I am a total novice and am happy just to shave some hair off my arm occasionally, I can help out with your inquiry of So Yamashita.

He is a fellow whom runs an online store (based in Sydney/NSW somewhere) called japan-tool.com

I think his handle on here is Soatoz. You will find he wrote the first few posts on this subcatagory about setting up chisels/planes etc.

He is a little slow to reply to emails/orders, but as soon as you have his attention, he is more than happy to bend over backwards explaining everything to the utmost degree.

I have had the pleasure of purchasing a few items from him (set of 11 kikuhiromaru nomi, 2 different genno and am amazing Tsukasa knife) and if time is not an issue, then I would highly recommend his expertise. Whilst his knowledge of jtools is phenominal, what he knows of sharpening/stones would fill an encyclopedia.
He is a pleasure to deal with and when he has time, a weath of knowledge that he is more than happy to pass on.


anyhoo, thats my 2cents
Thanks

Gab

[thumbsucker]

Thanks Gab, I am familiar with Soatoz, first time I saw him referred to as Yamashita

Evanism I will dig out my copy of Des Kings book and refresh myself.

[Sheets]

Hi Steve - I will give your guidance a try. Can you give me any directions to articles or videos that illustrate the "standard" method for Japanese tools?

Here's a vid I found on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yoS7...yeApQ5p4joZWSA
Although his main points were to address setting up a new chisel, the sharpening process he uses follows what I call standard practice, i.e., leaving the burr until the last stone. He doesn't say why or how to tell when its gone (he knows from experience), some people can feel it, but as Neil mentioned, the loupe helps to see that no part of the burr remains and also the quality and uniformity of the final edge.
In this vid (by the same author):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SOly...yeApQ5p4joZWSA he gives more explanation of dealing with the burr, or "wire edge" as he calls it, when sharpening a kanna (which will be one of your next upcoming purchases ).

In Toshio Odate's book: "Japanese Woodworking Tools, Their Tradition, Spirit and Use", he follows the same explanation, but uses his finger to feel when the burr is gone and cautions to resist the urge or practice of peeling off the burr, as it will "leave a raw edge", which is to say, not as sharp as possible.

Another common practice (essentially standard among Japanese craftsmen and many of us who use Japanese tools), is to sharpen free-hand and only with Japanese natural stones (at least for the final stage), but I don't have enough experience to say that this method is the only way, or superior to using any other method. Sharpening is one of those highly varied and very personal choices, for which many swear their method is the best. If you poke around YouTube enough, you will see many examples of "the best way to sharpen ". I will only elect to say that leaving the burr to the last stone and polishing it off will yield a better result.

Steve

[yojimbo]

Here's a vid I found on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yoS7...yeApQ5p4joZWSA
Although his main points were to address setting up a new chisel, the sharpening process he uses follows what I call standard practice, i.e., leaving the burr until the last stone. He doesn't say why or how to tell when its gone (he knows from experience), some people can feel it, but as Neil mentioned, the loupe helps to see that no part of the burr remains and also the quality and uniformity of the final edge.
In this vid (by the same author):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SOly...yeApQ5p4joZWSA he gives more explanation of dealing with the burr, or "wire edge" as he calls it, when sharpening a kanna (which will be one of your next upcoming purchases ).



Steve

Well done, Steve. I was just looking for those to post.

Becky

[NeilS]

Excuse my ignorance but who is Yamashita?

Apologies, Thumbsucker, I should have also referred to So as 'Soatoz', the author of many of the Sticky threads at the top of this forum.

IMO, there are two experts on Japanese woodworking tools in Australia; So Yamashita and Des King. So's father, is an acknowledged expert among experts in Japan, and Des has understudied masters in Japan. Des has also contributed to this forum in the past.

Odate's book is the recognised English language authority.

We are also fortunate to have Des' books.

Thumbsucker - if starting with #800 works for you, keep with that until your experience should suggest otherwise.

Neil

[thumbsucker]

I won an auction today on ebay for a old new stock for a 41 mm Oire-nomi the smiths name is山内 Yamauchi, I could not find anything about Yamauchi, however as far as I can tell its a well made nomi. Once it comes from Japan it will need to be setup and sharpened, I will try to apply the pointers from this thread into this new tool.

I have been thinking about a kanna, and have been keeping an eye out on ebay for one based on my readings and having watched Sumokun youtube vids for the signs of a good kanna. I got snipped on two kannas that I had researched and showed good pedigree. The search continues.

This was a kanna I was looking at but missed out by $3.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Smoothing...p2047675.l2557

Their is a Japanese gentleman who lives here in Victoria, he goes on ebay as austets, he as far as I can tell is a retired Japanese furniture maker who now imports and sell Japanese woodworking tools in OZ, but he is much more low profile, then Soatoz. Anyway I am planing to go and visit him soon with a wad of cash, shortly.

[Schtoo]

I need to keep this very short, I'm severely backlogged at the moment and it's not nice to 'play' here when there's stuff to ship out the door.

I do use a guide, it's allowed and nothing wrong with it. But I do go freehand more often than not, especially with chisels and plane blades, which is pretty much everything...

When sharpening, I'll make sure the geometry is right, that's what the 1K is for. Next, 6K then 13K and maybe 20K, only because I can. Final step is to do the back working forward and backward, not side to side. Saves wear on the legs on the back, focuses effort at the tip and works well, especially on narrower chisels. It's also how the fellow who made your chisels suggests to sharpen them, as well as most folks who earn a crust with them over here. It takes more time and effort to do initially, but it'll maintain a nice back.

At this point if I think there's still a tenacious burr, I'll re-work the bevel side, and the back again. Then rub on my jeans or palm, and off I go.

I always polish the bevel off. Some Western steels don't co-operate with this, but the Ouchi's will. The steel is a little 'sticky', but not so much that you can't polish the burr off easily. Also, I'll check to make sure I have a burr with a fingernail. Make sure you have clean hands when checking, otherwise you will put scratches in the back.

Also note that chisels and planes are completely different animals, so anything that applies to one does not necessarily apply to the other. Case in point, you tap out planes, but never EVER chisels. You work a chisel's back longways, but not a plane.

Stu.

[yojimbo]

I won an auction today on ebay for a old new stock for a 41 mm Oire-nomi the smiths name is山内 Yamauchi, I could not find anything about Yamauchi, however as far as I can tell its a well made nomi. Once it comes from Japan it will need to be setup and sharpened, I will try to apply the pointers from this thread into this new tool.

I have been thinking about a kanna, and have been keeping an eye out on ebay for one based on my readings and having watched Sumokun youtube vids for the signs of a good kanna. I got snipped on two kannas that I had researched and showed good pedigree. The search continues.

This was a kanna I was looking at but missed out by $3.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Smoothing...p2047675.l2557

Their is a Japanese gentleman who lives here in Victoria, he goes on ebay as austets, he as far as I can tell is a retired Japanese furniture maker who now imports and sell Japanese woodworking tools in OZ, but he is much more low profile, then Soatoz. Anyway I am planing to go and visit him soon with a wad of cash, shortly.

Thumbsucker -- just wanted to say that you pretty much can't go wrong with that seller, Tetsuguchi. He's a good guy who's always more than honest in his descriptions. You might add him to your favorite sellers. A totally trustworthy fellow.

[thumbsucker]

yojimbo I already have added him to my ebay favorites.

He lives about 3 hours away from me, but I hope to go and see him in the next two weeks.

Just have to make the arrangements. I am told that you can go to him with a $100 bucks and you can walk out with a full set of chisels.

Stu - thank you for your contribution. Most helpful. Expect an order shortly.

[yojimbo]

yojimbo I already have added him to my ebay favorites.

He lives about 3 hours away from me, but I hope to go and see him in the next two weeks.

Just have to make the arrangements. I am told that you can go to him with a $100 bucks and you can walk out with a full set of chisels.

Stu - thank you for your contribution. Most helpful. Expect an order shortly.

Has he moved down under? He was in Kamakura last I knew. J.D. and I used to keep up a fairly stead correspondence, though I haven't been in touch for a while.

Tell him Becky Cole (that'd be me) says hi!