Handsaw restoration

[Sawdust Maker]

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Attachment 304560

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Regards
Paul

I wonder whether Henry actually wrote like that

[Bushmiller]

I wonder whether Henry actually wrote like that

Nick

Do you mean the calligraphy or the content? If it is the content I think he, or at least his PR department if that is what they called themselves, did indeed talk like that: Certainly in their advertising. It was an era of some pomposity and flowery language was very acceptable.

I think we have to realise that competition was pretty intense and Disston in particular had the lion's share of the market in no small part because their marketing appealed to their customers. They had a good product, but so did others. Disston put themselves out there and said "Look at me!"

There were at least three saw manufacturers maintaining their saws could not be excelled or that they were the finest you could buy: Disston, Atkins and for a while Simonds (pronounced as in the boys name "Simon.")

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

This is the saw I have ear-marked for the test bed. It is pretty ordinary looking. I think it is a worn out Disston D8. It probably stated out life as a ship point model, but if it was sharpened much more it could pass as a keyhole saw

Consequently I can be philosophical as to it's life expectancy. It has a cracked tote and worn horns, but I doubt I'll be repairing those defects.

Disston saw test 001.jpgDisston saw test 002.jpgDisston saw test 003.jpgDisston saw test 004.jpg

The first method of rust removal is electrolysis:

Disston saw test 008.jpg

The timber is placed on the top of the container to raise the saw sufficiently to only contact the toe of the plate. Here you can see the foaming that is taking place. It is easily possible to see the transition of material from the object to the sacrificial tubing.

Disston saw test 009.jpg

This is straight out of the bath before being wiped with a scourer:

Disston saw test stage 2 012.jpgDisston saw test stage 2 009.jpgDisston saw test stage 2 010.jpg

Wiped off:

Disston saw test 007.jpg

Rubbed with W & D (400grit) on the toe and also the top mid section:

Disston saw test stage 2 013.jpg

Sectioned off for further treatment. Handle end to be hit with citric acid (5% solution). Top mid section with W & D, which has already been done for the same length of time as the toe and lastly the bottom mid section to be rubbed with aluminium foil and autosol.

Disston saw test stage 2 014.jpg

In some lights, even at this incomplete stage, the mid section look more shiny, and in other it it the toe that wins out. This is the saw sitting in the citric bath and will be checked tomorrow evening.

Disston saw test stage 2 015.jpg

No sign of an etch at this stage. I'm not really expecting one. When I think about it the most likely place is where the foil will be used and not being a flat technique I might have do a gentle rub with W & D first to see if anything is hiding.

Incidentally, this is how the sacrificial steel looks after the objects have been de-rusted:

Disston saw test 006.jpg

You can also see my highly technical connection between the two pieces. A piece of heavy electrical wire with alligator clips would have served the purpose just as well.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

This morning I took the test saw from the Citric Acid bath:

Disston test 3 001.jpgDisston test 3 005.jpgDisston test 3 009.jpgDisston test 3 011.jpg

The first pic is straight out of the citric bath, the second is after being wiped with a scourer. Then I returned the plate to the Ctric bath and gave it another 10 hours. So the third pic is again straight out of the bath and the fourth pic is after wiping a revolting black sludge off the plate. You can see the colour of the cloth. I didn't use the scourer, because it had decided to hide itself from me . Probably blew away .

I took to the plate with W & D, but the light became too poor for piccys. Tomorrow before I go into to Toowoomba maybe.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

I did do a little comparison with the other D8 on the handle size and plate size.

The test saw has a significantly larger handle with five sawnuts.

Disston test 3 007.jpgDisston test 3 008.jpg

But the plates are very similar. I have laid the plates over each other with the top edge (back?) and curve under the tote matched up exactly. You can certainly see just how worn the test saw really is.

Disston test 3 012.jpgDisston test 3 013.jpgDisston test 3 014.jpg

Perhaps one of you more knowledgeable types can say if the test saw is a panel saw. My understanding with Disston is that the panel saws (under 24"?) normally used less nuts. Certainly five nuts were found on D8 handsaws (26" and bigger) .

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Some pix to show the different results, which are a little hard to detect:

Disston test 4 001.jpgDisston test 4 002.jpg

To re-cap

Toe: Electrolysis
Heel: Citric acid
Top mid: W & D
Bot mid: Foil and metal polish (not yet done)

The three treated sections have all been rubbed with W & D to 400grit. I'll comment on the finishes once I have rubbed the fourth section and done a little more W & D work. The two sloped lines towards the heel are the difference between the first and second Citric bath as some evaporation had occurred and the water level did not quite reach the same spot.

Just for comparison this is the RHS of the plate, which has not had any mechanical work done to it.

Disston test 4 003.jpg

Regards
Paul

[Sawdust Maker]

interesting The RHS of the plate is already startimg to rust

[Bushmiller]

interesting The RHS of the plate is already startimg to rust

Nick

That is partly my fault for two reasons.

The recommendation is that after treating the saw plate (probably applies to most methods) it should be treated to prevent further deterioration. One technique is to bake the blade in an oven at low temperature (NOT > 150C to avoid destroying the temper) to make sure all moisture is removed. Ontop of that some anti-moisture treatment is required such as oiling or waxing.

I did none of this and my shed only has three walls so tools are very prone to absorbing moisture. This does seem to be particularly true after electrolysis as you have observed. The mid section has had no treatment so far on the RHS.

I obtained some metal polish today so I will quickly duck out and give it a go.

More later.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

The pic on the right is the result of applying the metal polish to the lower mid section will balled up aluminium foil:

Disston test saw 5 001.jpgDisston test saw 5 002.jpgDisston test saw 5 003.jpg

I then went over the whole lot with W & D through 800, 1500 up to 2000grit. I used mineral turps as the lubricant and it looked like this:

Disston test saw 5 004.jpg

Then I went to the RHS and did some more work with W & D 400grit over the whole lot using water for the lubricant:

Disston test saw 5 007.jpgDisston test saw 5 005.jpg

Then I went up to 2000grit as with the other side:

Disston test saw 5 011.jpgDisston test saw 5 010.jpg



Finally I hit the LHS with metal polish and foil as a last ditch effort to improve the finish. I have to add a word of caution in viewing the pix here and it is that depending on how the light catches the plate can make a huge difference. The plate darkened slightly after using the metal polish applied with foil and yet these following two pix, although they are at the same stage look vastly different.

Disston test saw 5 009.jpgDisston test saw 5 008.jpg

I'll put some conclusions in the next post.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Firstly we have to ask what we are trying to achieve.

1. Improved appearance
2. Reduced friction
3. Preservation of the saw plate against the elements.

In the case of this ageing saw it was partly rusted, very dull and generally very sad in it's overall condition. Ordinarily not a good candidate for restoration, but excellent for this test:

Disston saw test 001.jpg

The pitting is difficult to treat because the rust sits right in these depressions. Mechanical means (rubbing with Wet and Dry or Aluminium foil) is going to struggle with reaching into this multitude of miniature depressions. The paper or the foil is just going to scoot over the top and visually the surface will be darker. However, there will not be much difference in the frictional resistance if the saw was going to be a user (as opposed to being a collector showpiece.) In fact when a finger is rubbed over the length of this plate it is hard to detect much difference.

Electrolysis and citric acid cleaned the plate the best with electrolysis being marginally better. Both felt slightly rougher than the mid section which had been rubbed.

Once the toe and the heel were rubbed with W & D they were as smooth as the rubbed sections and slightly cleaner looking.

Of course if you are prepared to work at it for quite a time the rubbing methods will eventually flatten the plate as if it had been surface ground and would give the best result: Except that it would now be very thin and easily kinked.

My feelings are:

Wet and Dry

Can give a very smooth finish depending on the amount of elbow grease expended. Cleans up quite well. I preferred to use mineral turps for the lubricant, but it is a little on the unpleasant side and water is a viable substitute. It's the cheapest method of all, but didn't reach down into the plate without excessive amounts of effort.

Metal Polish applied with aluminium foil

Messy, particularly starting from scratch, but it gives a smooth finish primarily because it is super smooth itself. However it made the darkest finish of all as it could not reach into that myriad of depressions and in fact I think the residue tended to fill the depressions with a black scum, which was not easily removed. The polish is not cheap. There is another polish made by Autosol which is a finishing polish, but I used the one that was for clean up and to remove stains.

Citric Acid

Easy to use, cheap and did seem to clean the plate, but the finish was rough. Could not be used by itself. In conjunction with W & D produced an acceptable result.

Electrolysis

Some set up required and a suitable size container could be an issue. requires a suitable battery charger. A 4amp charger with an ammeter on it is probably the best in practical terms. The one I used was too large and had no ammeter to guage how much power was being used.

Once set up, it is cheap and easy to use, but there are some initial costs and possibly some concerns using water and electricity.

Having said that, in conjunction with W & D rubbing it produced the best result in terms of both cleanliness of the plate and smoothness, but would not be acceptable by itself.

None of the methods used produced a really good finish, but that was probably owing to the original, poor condition of the plate. Some polishing of the plate with wax or oil would probably further refine the finish.

I'd welcome any further comments or insights.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Just an afterthought on the lubrication for W & D: I briefly tried WD40 today. It made no difference to the level of sheen I was able to achieve and I suspect it is just a matter of preference.

However, it is quite likely that in using something like WD40 or Inox etc you have automatically created at least a temporary protection against further rusting. The penetrating oils are notorious for evaporating quickly so this is why I say a temporary barrier against rust.

Regards
Paul

[Claw Hama]

I have a little D112 that looks like that, not in bad condition but any further down and you're at the key hole point There were pics on a thread some time back.

[Sawdust Maker]

Paul

Thanks for doing this experimentation and analysis. And for writing it up
It is very helpful

Just an afterthought on the lubrication for W & D: I briefly tried WD40 today. It made no difference to the level of sheen I was able to achieve and I suspect it is just a matter of preference.

However, it is quite likely that in using something like WD40 or Inox etc you have automatically created at least a temporary protection against further rusting. The penetrating oils are notorious for evaporating quickly so this is why I say a temporary barrier against rust.

Regards
Paul

I was wondering about using diesel as the lubricant?

[Bushmiller]

Paul

Thanks for doing this experimentation and analysis. And for writing it up
It is very helpful



I was wondering about using diesel as the lubricant?

Nick

It would probably be excellent providing you don't mind stinking of diesel . I think I would stick with penetrating fluid.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

I have a little D112 that looks like that, not in bad condition but any further down and you're at the key hole point There were pics on a thread some time back.

Claw

I think the D112 (the skewback version of the D12?)is more covertable than my common all garden D8 . I plan to salvage the sawnuts and that's about it.

Regards
Paul