Handsaw restoration

[pmcgee]

Thanks Paul. I was trying to keep my post all hush hush.
Stewie;

Ok. No problem. I won't tell anyone it's too good to miss.
Nod's as good as a wink etc.

[surfdabbler]

Hi all. I've come in late to this thread, but I've been doing some restoration lately, getting rid of rust on old tools. I've been using rust remover (phosphoric acid) and steel wool to get rid of the rust, followed by WD paper and WD40 to smooth the surface. After that, I put it under the polishing wheel, and it comes up super shiny. If I take the WD up to 600 grit before polishing, then I get a mirror finish. Some of the parts were completely hidden under rust before starting, and they've come up beautiful.

[Bushmiller]

Hi all. I've come in late to this thread, but I've been doing some restoration lately, getting rid of rust on old tools. I've been using rust remover (phosphoric acid) and steel wool to get rid of the rust, followed by WD paper and WD40 to smooth the surface. After that, I put it under the polishing wheel, and it comes up super shiny. If I take the WD up to 600 grit before polishing, then I get a mirror finish. Some of the parts were completely hidden under rust before starting, and they've come up beautiful.

Surfdabbler

It would be good to see some pix if you have them, even if it is only the finished product.

Regards
Paul

[pmcgee]

... I've been using rust remover (phosphoric acid) and steel wool to get rid of the rust, followed by WD paper and WD40 to smooth the surface. After that, I put it under the polishing wheel, and it comes up super shiny.

A note from the Quibbler ... I'd put phosphoric down as rust /converter/ vs rust /remover/ ... what effect do you see it as having, please?

I did an experiment after seeing the young carpenter-lookin' guy in one of the so-so videos I linked to.
Do you find the polishing warms/heats the saw-blade?

The guy had used a flap-disc to get rust off ... which I thought was pretty agricultural ... but wanted to try and see what happened.
I was pretty surprised.

Before shot 20140228_133857 (Medium).jpg The disc 20140228_133923 (Medium).jpg 20140228_133935 (Medium).jpg

(it had been used pretty heavily previously if I recall - on a trailer)

I did this much using light pressure and it was barely warm ...

20140228_134121 (Medium).jpg

I tried WD40 on the plate, but it get thrown off pretty fast, so I just used water. Then thought of putting a metal plate underneath as a heatsink. That worked well ... squirting water every 30 or seconds, and using the disc lightly. The plate was staying cool to the touch.

20140228_134322 (Medium).jpg 20140228_134700 (Medium).jpg

In the end ...



It was just an experiment ... main criteria being not to overheat the sawblade.
I was really surprised it could be done to this extent and stay cool.

I had rubbed it a little with old 120 before the video ... but you could still see both sets of scratches in the right light.

20140228_140942 (Medium).jpg 20140228_141002(0) (Medium).jpg 20140228_141016 (Medium).jpg 20140228_141018 (Medium).jpg

I don't recommend it ... but I thought it was of interest.
Paul

[surfdabbler]

A picture speaks a thousand words...

Here's a few before and after shots...

First up is an alignment tool thingy that came with the lathe. It was pretty well rusted up, and came up really well. I think the base piece was already kind of rough before it rusted, so this is not purely rust damage that has prevented it from coming up mirror shiny.

IMG_0952.JPGIMG_4887.JPG

Next next shots are the lathe handles...
IMG_3364.JPGIMG_4886.JPG

The second photo looks like it has rust spots, and when I saw the photo, I though "Oh not, not coming back already!", but after careful inspection of the handles, I couldn't find the rust, and then I realised that the exact same rust spot shows up on all the balls. It's actually my reflection.

The last shots here are a plane, and the blade was pretty badly rusted, but it came up nice after conversion, including a very visible logo...

IMG_0869.JPGphoto2-001.JPG

Paul, yes you are right phosphoric acid is a rust *converter*, so I guess technically it's the rubbing with steel wool during the phosphoric acid process that actually *removes* the rust, as well as the WD paper afterwards. (I learned the hard way that you really should wear gloves if you use steel wool in the acid. Phosphoric acid is pretty mild, even when I used it undiluted, and you can get away with it for a while, but if you get some steel-wool cuts, and the acid gets in, it stings!

And yes, the polish wheel certainly heats the metal. I ended up wearing gloves while polishing, just to hold the parts. But I don't think it was even vaguely approaching tempering temperature. Hey, electrolysis recommends baking in the oven afterwards.

[Bushmiller]

Paul

An interesting experiment with the flap disc. I gather it was well worn, but you didn't mention the grit size. I think the trick would be to use it very gently and the steel plate for a heat sink is a good move.

You set me thinking that probably with reasonable care heat isn't the issue. To my mind the issue is the creation of swirl marks that may be difficult or impossible to remove in reasonable terms from the saw plate.

I have used a strip disc in the past for removing paint from car body parts where you definitely don't want damage to the metal to occur. I have some of these still. In fact I have one that I used to take a bonnet back to bare metal. Tomorrow I might give it a go and see how it performs.

This is a link to the product and if you scroll down to the video you can see rust removal and paint removal (paint removal on a car panel is at the 3min 30sec stage)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-x-115mm...item51b931474d

The strip discs are available in many different sizes but only coarse and medium grits as far as I can see.

Incidentally Smith and Arrow is a member on the Forums, but other than having bought many of their products (strip discs, flap discs, cutting discs etc), I have no affiliation with them.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Surfdabbler

Thanks for posting the pix. They came up well. One of the problems with saw plates is that they are a relatively large flat surface and very unforgiving of marks and blemishes. It is one of the reasons restorers don't even try to re-create the mirror finish from the factory. Also in achieving that, assuming it can be done, it may be that the etch is sacrificed.

I like bright and shiny, but I also love the etch. A dilemma: You have choose .

Regards
Paul

[surfdabbler]

Yes, a few of the tools that I have restored have had manufacturers stamps on them, which are OK with sanding and polishing so long as you are careful, but there were a couple with etches on them. I steered clear of this area. I agree that the etch is important, because the mark is part of the tool.

[pmcgee]

I guess technically it's the rubbing with steel wool during the phosphoric acid process that actually *removes* the rust, as well as the WD paper afterwards. (I learned the hard way that you really should wear gloves if you use steel wool in the acid. Phosphoric acid is pretty mild, even when I used it undiluted, and you can get away with it for a while, but if you get some steel-wool cuts, and the acid gets in, it stings!

And yes, the polish wheel certainly heats the metal. I ended up wearing gloves while polishing, just to hold the parts. But I don't think it was even vaguely approaching tempering temperature. Hey, electrolysis recommends baking in the oven afterwards.

Thanks ... another method to try out.

I think BobL wrote about cleaning off with electrolysis then waiting for an even rust to start to appear before adding ph/ac, to try to get uniform appearance.

I understand what you're saying about temperature ... I'm not an expert ... so somewhat tentative with the babies.

Cheers,
Paul

[pmcgee]

MarvW talked about how he cleans up stuff here ... http://woodworkerszone.com/igits/sho...91&postcount=5

More stuff to try!

BTW ... you should see the wheat-carving he does on handles. unbelievable!

Cheers,
Paul

[Bushmiller]

In this test I have tried to get a feel for improvements using the strip disc in an angle grinder. I has an old disc which I stripped the paint from a largish car bonnet and a brand new disc which is in the grinder. There was no appreciable difference but I continued with the new disc.

Handsaw resto 7 005.jpg

Initially I tried the old worn Disston test bed saw and in different spots along the plate:

Handsaw resto 7 002.jpgHandsaw resto 7 001.jpg

In the second picture I have written in the wrong spot in the middle. The shiny spots are where I have hit the plate with the strip disc.

The I went to the reverse side with the Sandvik and at the tote end used the strip disc at slow speed, full speed in the middle and not at all at the toe.

Handsaw resto 7 004.jpg

Then I used wet and dry paper at 400grit with mineral turps as the lubricant. I did this because my work table is otherwise occupied and I used my jointer table . I didn't want to spread water all over that. Any shine immediately dissappeared and I then used 800grit with mineral turps. Same story.

Then I used 800, 1500 and 2000grits progressively, but dry this time. Not much time spent on these steps. Possibly 30secs to 60sec each.

Handsaw resto 7 006.jpgHandsaw resto 7 007.jpgHandsaw resto 7 009.jpgHandsaw resto 7 012.jpg

As I have mentioned before, the effect is augmented by the way the light plays on the blade. I put the LHS pic in again for a comparisson.

My conclusions are

The strip disc imparts no lasting marks on the plate providing excessive pressure is not used. Excessive pressure gives no extra benefit anyway.

The strip disc only imparted heat to the blade if excessive pressure was used. Using the angle grinder at full speed I was able to easily hold my hand to the plate immediately after stripping (the disc, not me ). At work we use the yardstick that a bare hand can be placed on metal around 60 deg C for about 4 seconds. (This is not some masochistic tendency but a quick way of checking for hot bearings.)

There is a noticeable improvement in finish, but it doesn't replace rubbing. It is an extra step.

I think it is a step worthy of consideration. The discs are not the cheapest product at nearly $10, but their longevity is excellent. I would suggest they would cope with 25 to 50 plates before wearing out, but that would depend on the level of plate contamination.

By the time I reached 1500 grit there was significant reflection on the plate. At 2000grit there was discernable reflection in that I could see myself so I quickly stopped.

I think most people apply wax at this point, but I don't have anything suitable so that will have to be done at a later time. As this plate is for restoration, I will go back both sides over the whole length to achieve a uniform finish, but not today.

Notes:

I started with a plate that had already had electrolysis treatment.
I don't know how it would go with a plate containing a potential etch. (I have no more rusted plates.) I suspect it would be better to investigate the etch potential slowly with other methods first.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

There are so many variables but here I used four different oils. The timber was a piece of very dry cypress pine with a mahogany stain.

The oils were Boiled Linseed Oil (Diggers), Danish Oil (Rustins), Scandinavian Teal Oil (Wattyl) and Hard Burnishing Oil (Organoil).

Handsaw resto 7 013.jpg

After many coats of oil, there was no discernable difference in finish. If I hadn't marked them, I wouldn't have known which was which.

To use the BLO and Organoil were more viscous and had more of a tendency to sit on the surface and the Danish Oil and Teak Oil, being thinner, had the impression of penetrating the wood more quickly. The Danish oil became sticky and the surplus oil needed to be wiped off more quickly than the others.

I wonder a little about the finishing process. I will put some shellac over all these, but I won't get to do that until next Tuesday at the earliest. It will give the oils time to dry.

Regards
Paul

[Sawdust Maker]

Interesting - thanks for the writeup on the strip disc, you're a good bloke, Bushy

I think I have one of those pads somewhere
might have to give this a go

I've also a belt for the multitool attachment on the grinder - might have to try that as well

edit
but it didn't happen without a video record!!

[Bushmiller]

Interesting - thanks for the writeup on the strip disc, you're a good bloke, Bushy

I think I have one of those pads somewhere
might have to give this a go

I've also a belt for the multitool attachment on the grinder - might have to try that as well

edit
but it didn't happen without a video record!!

Nick

In that case it might not have happened as my level of technology is not yet at that stage . In fact you are conversing with someone who doesn't have a mobile phone . I know, "What planet am I from?" That is my son's comment, although he doesn't phrase it quite so nicely!

With a linisher (simila to your mutitool attachment) or a belt sander the danger is of developing long scratch marks that are difficult to remove at a later date. If you try that (perhaps on a plate you are regarding as sacrificial) use the finest grit you have as the process is very aggressive and will remove metal. The plate will also get hot so some precautions (handy bottle of spray water) may be advisable.

Let us know how you go.

Regards
Paul

[Sawdust Maker]

Paul

I wasn't looking at using sandpaper just one of those scourer type belts
I bought one a couple of years ago when the local hardware was closing

and yes I have a couple of sacrifical saws here someplace

actually have another saw coming - was sitting at son's training the other day sanding the Francis Wood handle
One of the Dad's said - "haven't you finished that yet?"
replied "Nah I only do it here as it whiles away the time"
he said "I've an saw belonging to my father - been hanging on the same nail for 3 or 4 years - I'm not going to use it, you can have it"
"Thanks"

yay another saw - could be scraper blades though, as he's no idea what it could be or even how old.

actually that raises another question

What's the best way to cut down an old blade for scrapers?


PS
I know a number of people without mobile phones
my son shakes his head at mine as I only use it for calls. I believe it can take photos but why bother