Liability for small shops?

[JDarvall]

Good Morning Evanism


DO NOTHING - This is obviously the easiest and cheapest in the short run and the risk of being sued is very low. However, one event could be catostrophic. Loss of business, house, all assets, bankruptcy ...... and the emotional and family costs are far greater than the financial costs. Before one gets to court there is a negotiation phase, and lawyers actively use the threat of costs as a negotiation sledge hammer especially when dealing with "small" opponents. On several occasions I have witnessed a lawyer tell a client "We may bankrupt you before we get near the court." Big pressure.

fear.

Its better to have some personal pride, than to dish out hundreds of year to businesses that are taking advantage of this human weakness (the grey area regarding odds would be exploited against you as much as possible) to cover a ridiculous law suit against you, over a petty overeacted situation that people are looking for blame for,,,, thats most probably driven by the prospect of a huge payout.

I'd much prefer to do the best I can to make a good product…. avoid the fear of ridiculous odds from dirt searching wankers…. and not worry about the odd wanker who can't simply see it as it is ….an accident. Don't worry about someone whose tempted to embellish the accident…… people who can't go ' well its clear the woodworker wasn't really to blame…. s*it happens'. and move on.

If my furniture was involved in an incident, I'd be chasing them anyway to fix the situation as well. I'd be feel guilty instinctively even if I've got no reason to be. Be sincerely apologetic. (but then that maybe seen as moves towards trying to avoid a lawsuit )

And for most woodworkers, you really haven't got much distance to fall anyway. If your hit, the rebuild is possible ( and may actually be good. Relaunching your passion, that was slowly dragged away after years of dealing with all this people BS )

All these pressures always point towards a simpler life with few possessions as being a much happier way to live. I've always felt that.

Its just my personal opinion. Sorry if that sounds confronting.

[soundman]

Hell looking at what you guys are paying....ya getting it cheap.

If you are going to do business, you have rocks in your head to do so without public liability insurance..serioulsy.

I have no choice, to hold the licences I do and to do business with the people I do, I am required to show proof that I carry insurance.

The level of insurance has increased quite a bit lately.....when I first started 2 million was the considered ample coverage needed for a small contractor.....that was what it was worth to kill a person...then two people got killed by a slab of concrete dropped from a crane in Brisbane so it went up to 6 million.....the safety and liability burocrats have been engaged in a game of oneupmanship for a while now.....requirements of 20 million are not uncommon now.....hell what has one bloke with hammer, a screwdriver & a soldeing iron got to do wrong that costs 20 million?

So....my insurance now costs me nearly $2000 a year.....for a single man contracting business than may employ one other irregularly......I continue to carry coverage for limited electrical, electronic manufacture, metalwork woodworking and entertainment production in public places.......I do not insure for "hot work" outside my workshop..so I do not take any sort of flame, welder or grinder to a customer's premises.

It realy is getting hard for the small operator to cover the costs of dealing with compliance and liability these days........you realy have to ask yaselves..will I do enough business and make enough money for it to be viable.


Now one thing.....I rolled my public liability into a business insurance package that also covers the contents of my shed and I am required to insure goods in care and controll......these other additions did not add much to the cost of my liability polocy...way way less than holding the various insurances as seperate polocies.

Now...remember if you are operating a business from your home, your normal household insurance may not cover the risks associated with operating your businss there.

Remember if another business has a liability claim, that may involve you or your products...they will hand the issue straight over to their insurer....they will then have no say whatsoever in the matter..AND..their insurerer will attempt recover any costs they can from any source they can, for any reason they can....good reason or not.

Your insurer will not only cover any reasonable liability you may owe, but will represent your/their legal interests against claims that are unreasonable.

I have had one bloke try to claim a couple of thousand from me over a $20 product I sold him.....in this case I told him to "drop on his head" myself....but if he pressed the matter I would have handed it to my insurer.

Remember the way the laws are now, you can not contract out of certain liabilities like you could at one time......one of those is consequential loss.

As for incorpiration.............yeh I know many accountants and solicitors push this one....and some companies employing contractors require it..........but for a small one or two man business it brings a world of additional responsibilities, regulation and paperwork.

If you intend to continue uninsured.....ask ya self.....how much can I afford to loose..and how lucky an I feeling.

SO...are you feelin' lucky..well are you.

cheers

[JDarvall]

Hell looking at what you guys are paying....ya getting it cheap.


SO...are you feelin' lucky..well are you.

PUNK ! … sounds better when you say punk.

​feeeeeeeeeeeear.

[rustynail]

This thread has produced some very interesting takes on the vagaries of insurance. Many of them are somewhat hypothetical. Understandably.
When I started making furniture on a commercial basis some years ago, I was advised, by a broker friend, to be aware of the risk of being sued. My broker and I have been friends for 50 years. I value her opinion and trust her judgement. That is not to say I dont way up her advise in my own mind before making my decision.
I make a lot of chairs. My uncle was killed due to chair failure. Fortunately not one of mine. One of the rear legs had what appeared to be an almost invisible felling shake. The leg collapsed, he fell to the floor and hit his temple on the corner of the skirting board.
I try to make a quality product, but hey, as I have stated elsewhere, self praise is no recommendation. Nonetheless, there are too many areas, beyond your control, where a product can fail. There are also many uses that will test your product to its very limit. Kids would be one. Litigation is expensive. Company registration only goes part way to relieving you of responsibility. And after all, is that really what one wants...the chance to slip out of range? I carry insurance to protect both myself and my customer. There are a lot of people out there who make sure they have no assets. Pretty poor form if you ask me. Many claims for compensation are justified. Those that are, should not be met with a shrug of the shoulders.
The reason I opted for a stand alone policy was that it allowed me to tailor it to perceived requirements. It also carried a lower premium due to its lower level of risk.
IMHO a good broker is well worth the investment. The money they can save you is well worth their fee. Their ability to negotiate with insurance companies, on your behalf, helps greatly.

[soundman]

The broker is well worth the effort.

Most of the volume retail insurers realy don't do well for trades or anything unusual.

A mate of mine got a rep out from one of the major retail insurers that do a lot of domestic homes.....they simply would not quote him because he was working in a shed with a wooden floor.....

Some insurers will hit you up hard for a shed with a wooden floor or a wooden building for industrial use.....others don't seem to even factor it.

Some insurance companies will have a great deal of trouble putting your partricular type of "weirdness" in a pidgeon hole, while there are a couple who have ready listed, worked out packages for some serioulsy weird stuff.

OH and watch the exclusions...things may be excluded from your polocy that you want in...or you may wish to exclude things you can avoid........I know excluding "on site hot work" saved me a lot of money on my premium....There have been a couple of high profile accidents involving welding or grinding, burning down buildings of late.

cheers

[JDarvall]

There are a lot of people out there who make sure they have no assets. Pretty poor form if you ask me. Many claims for compensation are justified.

and many many aren't.

And I very very much doubt someone with few assets are making sure they have little JUST to avoid a lawsuit. That would be ridiculous (if thats what your implying ?)

And I would dare to say that a higher (not implying you) production commercial environment would have a greater chance of missing a felling shake in the leg. For me, I don't even know how that can happen even when I'm day dreaming.If I had a larger scale business I would take out insurance. Especially if not everything can be watched over, and deadlines imposed etc.

If one of my chairs caused a death, I'd do everything I could to compensate. A million dollars wouldn't compensate though would it. But what are the odds of death from a chair breaking. The odds must be extreme. But because the word 'death' has been uttered does that mean one should cover themselves in an extreme manner !

Decisions still aren't been made based on odds. Its fear of whats been heard that can happen. (some bloke told me about a commet strike hitting the earth the other day, but I still haven't got around to digging a shelter under my house)

If your small scale, insurance costs are significant. which means if your having trouble covering things you don't believe in, and don't follow the status que, your a bad soul ?


There's a lot of issues. I don't want to have a heated argument. I do have respect for what you say, I just don't agree with some of it.

[soundman]

Whats the odds of death or injury from a breaking chair.....um pretty good actually.

As far as the actual risk concerned...the insurance companies have the statistics......of course they do.

There are very close paralells betwen insurance underwriting and bookmaking (gambling).

Neither offer odds or premiums blindly......the bookies all subscribe to an odds service of some sort that reports the market in real time from about 20 minutes from barrier time......the insurance companies have comprehensive histories of claims and risk going back hundreds of years......they have a pretty damn good idea of the odds of a chair breaking and hurting or killing someone...AND how much was paid out.

As for my own personal experience........I have seen quite a few chairs fail.....funniest was a politician falling off the back of a stage when the works department issue arm chair had a rear leg failure......fundamentally flawed design....he was lucky, he ended up head first backward in a pot plant......if he would have not had the the pot plant there to break his fall...his head would have certainly struck the bitumen.....chances of a serious head injury....oh 60/40....chances of death....15 to 20%.
I can tell you it was one of the most serious accidents I have ever seen ...........
If you have ever seen "the big read chair"..it was just like that, but the chair was not big & red and there was no scripting....this bloke just disapeared backward off the stage with a surprised look on his face

Of late there has been a lot in the news of one punch deaths......mostly these deaths are as a result of the victums head hitting the ground.

I times past if a bloke got and fell over in the street....breaking his arm......it was his own stupid fault.
Now if a bloke falls over , he is more likley to go to a no win, no fee, personal injury specilist....and they will go after the publican for breaching responsible service of alcahol, failing to maintain a safe footpath or failing to care for an intoxicated person.


A couple of links

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-3...broken/4926622


http://www.injuryclaimcoach.com/chai...-injuries.html

http://www.personalinjury-attorney.c...nge-county.php

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...hair-fall.html

Hell the lawers in the US are specifically advertising for cases associated with chairs breaking.

cheers

[rustynail]

Apricotripper,
Mate I dont feel we are arguing. We are just weighing up the pros and cons. This is of benefit to Evanism in that it gives him an insight into others experiences over the years. No bad thing, Im sure you'll agree?
The idea of being assetless is embarked upon by many. Not just for the purpose of avoiding being sued, but also a way of overcoming tax obligations, pension eligibility, ex wives claims etc etc. This is not to say they dont have assets, they just dont have them in their name.
What are the odds of a chair breaking? High. Most chairs end their lives by breaking sooner or later. The good ones break later. Thats what makes them good. Granted, mistreatment is the most common cause of early demise. But if that is to be the defence, the onus of proof is on you. They can prove the chair failed. They have the broken chair to prove it. Good luck trying to prove what happened in the privacy of their own home.
Personally, I am not a gambler. Odds are not my method of calculating . I prefer to take a more pragmatic approach. Call it pessimism if you like, but it works for me.
I am not a fearful person. Twelve years of Rugby including matches against Fiji, Tonga, Samoa and The Maori
helped me realize that. Concerned? Most definitely!
I have a close friend being sued at the moment. Totally innocent, but nonetheless, embroiled in a battle which, to date, has cost him in excess of sixty grand. When it goes to trial in August and assuming a win, he will be entitled to claim costs and will probably be awarded same. The other party is a pensioner with no assets. Good luck getting his sixty grand back. This is one of those instances you mentioned...fraudulent claim. It still has to be found fraudulent, so the matter goes on and the bills keep coming in. This case has been going on for two years. He has to fly back to Aus for each hearing, only to be told the matter has been adjourned due to the plaintiffs ill health and inability to attend court.
Give it to the insurance company and let them sort it out. Courts are for tennis. Lawyer are expensive. And your time is valuable.
Sixty grand verses four hundred and eighty dollars? You are better at the odds than me.

[JDarvall]

Whats the odds of death or injury from a breaking chair.....um pretty good actually.

As far as the actual risk concerned...the insurance companies have the statistics......of course they do.

ok, maybe we can break it all down and finally come up with some odds thats useable for working out weather or not insurance is needed for a small chair business.

from the links…..
1st - plastic chair. (out)
2nd - ? chair
3rd - he had a lot of concerns. nice advice, But what odds. and how do the customers work it out.
4th - glass chair

How can I after all the fear sounding words used through those links come up with odds that relates to my chair making.

I need stats ONLY associated with …..windsor chair making, wooden chairs, steam bent legs (straight gain needed -> less or no chance of runout failure at leg tips). When you bend legs the steam process reveals cracks (so no , or at least far less chance of ever missing say a 'invisible' felling shake like rusty nails friend experienced), stretcher compression, solid seat (less parts to construct -> less joints to fail)….<- the undercarriage concerns. Don't feel need to talk about the rest as it seems to be everything under the bum is what kills people.

Not plastic or glass chairs.

I need a number associated to this (nothing else just brought to help defend someones argument)….so I can directly relate it with the chances of odds readily available to me, so I can make a confident decision on weather or not I should get insurance. .uno compare it with things Like getting struck by lightning. Car travel. Shower masterbation.

??? what are the odds sound man ?

In any case, did you hear. Injury due to shower masterbation is up 50%. Actually surpassing car travel deaths which has finally made it feasible to instigate a specialist inspector training program. These new trained inspectors will be provided with new model fords and will travel the country to bring a holt to shower masterbation once and for all. Not only will it save lives but also WATER ! (I'm not yelling). With new residential freedom powers, our inspectors will be able to surprise offenders at the most optimal moment. Timing is everything.

[JDarvall]

Apricotripper,
Mate I dont feel we are arguing. We are just weighing up the pros and cons. This is of benefit to Evanism in that it gives him an insight into others experiences over the years. No bad thing, Im sure you'll agree?
The idea of being assetless is embarked upon by many. Not just for the purpose of avoiding being sued, but also a way of overcoming tax obligations, pension eligibility, ex wives claims etc etc. This is not to say they dont have assets, they just dont have them in their name.
What are the odds of a chair breaking? High. Most chairs end their lives by breaking sooner or later. The good ones break later. Thats what makes them good. Granted, mistreatment is the most common cause of early demise. But if that is to be the defence, the onus of proof is on you. They can prove the chair failed. They have the broken chair to prove it. Good luck trying to prove what happened in the privacy of their own home.
Personally, I am not a gambler. Odds are not my method of calculating . I prefer to take a more pragmatic approach. Call it pessimism if you like, but it works for me.
I am not a fearful person. Twelve years of Rugby including matches against Fiji, Tonga, Samoa and The Maori
helped me realize that. Concerned? Most definitely!
I have a close friend being sued at the moment. Totally innocent, but nonetheless, embroiled in a battle which, to date, has cost him in excess of sixty grand. When it goes to trial in August and assuming a win, he will be entitled to claim costs and will probably be awarded same. The other party is a pensioner with no assets. Good luck getting his sixty grand back. This is one of those instances you mentioned...fraudulent claim. It still has to be found fraudulent, so the matter goes on and the bills keep coming in. This case has been going on for two years. He has to fly back to Aus for each hearing, only to be told the matter has been adjourned due to the plaintiffs ill health and inability to attend court.
Give it to the insurance company and let them sort it out. Courts are for tennis. Lawyer are expensive. And your time is valuable.
Sixty grand verses four hundred and eighty dollars? You are better at the odds than me.

I agree with what your saying. If I was in YOUR situation (larger production) I would get insurance too, because I'd FEAR all of it as well. Lawyers,… all the dramas. And because you've had 12years of rugby, I'd FEAR having to face you on the field. I used to play rugby as a kid, and I'm not keen on being tagged in a scrum. I was a front forward, and I know it didn't mean anything, but I still don't appreciate my nuts being grabbed by the second rower. …..Do have a fantasy of playing rugby against a team of naked women though.

I just have a problem with alarmist decisions. A general one. I want to make decisions on accuracy. not heresay…etc.

Would it be too much to ask what the chair that failed looked like ?

[rustynail]

ok, maybe we can break it all down and finally come up with some odds thats useable for working out weather or not insurance is needed for a small chair business.

from the links…..
1st - plastic chair. (out)
2nd - ? chair
3rd - he had a lot of concerns. nice advice, But what odds. and how do the customers work it out.
4th - glass chair

How can I after all the fear sounding words used through those links come up with odds that relates to my chair making.

I need stats ONLY associated with …..windsor chair making, wooden chairs, steam bent legs (straight gain needed -> less or no chance of runout failure at leg tips). When you bend legs the steam process reveals cracks (so no , or at least far less chance of ever missing say a 'invisible' felling shake like rusty nails friend experienced), stretcher compression, solid seat (less parts to construct -> less joints to fail)….<- the undercarriage concerns. Don't feel need to talk about the rest as it seems to be everything under the bum is what kills people.

Not plastic or glass chairs.

I need a number associated to this (nothing else just brought to help defend someones argument)….so I can directly relate it with the chances of odds readily available to me, so I can make a confident decision on weather or not I should get insurance. .uno compare it with things Like getting struck by lightning. Car travel. Shower masterbation.

??? what are the odds sound man ?

In any case, did you hear. Injury due to shower masterbation is up 50%. Actually surpassing car travel deaths which has finally made it feasible to instigate a specialist inspector training program. These new trained inspectors will be provided with new model fords and will travel the country to bring a holt to shower masterbation once and for all. Not only will it save lives but also WATER ! (I'm not yelling). With new residential freedom powers, our inspectors will be able to surprise offenders at the most optimal moment. Timing is everything.

Aprocotripper,
Some documented evidence on the last one would be appreciated.
In my business I offer (begrudgingly) chair repair. That was a big mistake. You should see some of the crap people want a fresh breath of life injected into! But it is an ego boosting challenge to sometimes be able to achieve what others think impossible. I would much rather make a new one.
Interestingly, a large percentage of the chairs sent to me for repair are Windsors. Usually good ones, well made but getting a little long in the tooth. The most usual problems are seat split, Bow delam and glue failure. But wait for it, heres the doozy, borer attack! Even in relatively new chairs due to the propensity of makers using greenish timber. But that doesnt mean seasoned timber wont be attacked, it will. Our borers love oak and many of the other timbers popular for Windsor style chairs. Blind felling shakes dont always go the full width of the piece. They often can remain intact until the timber dries enough so the fibres shrink back allowing the invisible crack to open. If this situation were to occur in a back bow, and it was in the concave part of the bow, no one would know until someone leaned back in the chair.
There are many areas for failure in chairs. The longer you have been repairing them the more areas you become aware of. The old English chairmaker that taught me the art said, " Never ask a chair maker what is wrong with his chair, he will tell you nothing, either literally or figuratively, ask a chair repairer." He was right...He was always right.
To be honest mate, depending on your assets, you would be an ideal candidate. Just a thought. No threat intended nor implied.

[soundman]

If you want an answer to the odds..speak to a insurance underwriter....but they won't be interested in breaking it down by chair type....though it would not surprise me if there is an insurerer out there with a specific windsor chair and bent goods insurance polocy...there would be enough of them in the US and the UK to get the statistics.

Neither clever insurance underwriter nor smart bookies are gamblers.....they know they will make money, both by knowing the odds and offsetting their risks against those odds.
When a small bookie takes a large bet.....If the horse has any chnace of getting up.......if he is smart he will place a covering bet with another bigger bookie or the big totes at better odds than he gave the punter..that way he simply cant loose.
Insurance is the same....one insurance company will get underwitten by another....there are big money insurance business who do nothing else but underwrite smaller insurance company risks.....OH insurance is a convoluted business and the real money is in the hands of very few.

You can go on about fear all you like...the truth is the world works on fear....fear is the emotion that comes from a reasonable assessment of risk.

If you realy want to get into it you can draw up a risk matrix.

If you want to continue on uninsured...or as it is technically termed..."self insured"...off you go....but it comes down to.....how lucky you are feelling...so are you feeling lucky.



Going back to those who divest themselves of assetts...........what the hell do you think incorpiration is....it is a mechanism specifically aimed at limiting liability.....every single company out there is specifically structured to protect the investors or owners assets in the case of failure.

On the small scale...there are plenty of people out there who by one mechanism or another divest themselves of assetts or isolate themselves from their rightfull liabilities by one means or another.

it is pretty common to see business that go broke, then pop up a short time later with different names in different places but still operationally the same business.

Very common in certain areas of business...night clubs, dodgy renovators & builders.
The tax department, other regulators and various other business are wise to this sort of behaviour and laws have changed and almost without exceptions companies will not get accounts without director's personal guarantees or a bank guarantee.

I know of one lighting hire company, that was run by ( for want of a better word) a bunny, this bunny had little or no assets, the building was owned by one investor who charged rent as his return, all the inventory was owned by other investors who sub hired the equipment to the company......a couple of the investors where actually working for wages in the business..........all the consumables where supplied thru varuous investor business as rates above the odds.
None of the investors actually showed as any part of the company, none of the investors put any money directly into the company or took a dividend directly from the company..none of the investors had any liability in the company whatsosver.
When this company went broke, the investors where actually creditors..the bunny declared bankrupcy and the investors retained all their assetts and all the profits they had gained from the company.

The bunny went back to his normal life....which was more or less devoid of assetts as it was prior, but was "looked after" by the investors thru his bankrupy.
He lived rent free as caretaker in the building of the next incarnation.

Some speculate....quite reasonably that the business was always going to go broke...because all the business inputs where being charged over the odds.

Oh it is a tangled web......the various authorities and financiers are wise to this sort of scheme..and there are measures in place to curb this activity.....but there are those who make a living out of being one step ahead.

But that is hardly a viable model for a small time woodworker.
It is not however unusual for one member of a family or an associate to opperate the business and have only the minimum assets and funds in their name while another holds all the money.

Still not how most of us want to work....but plenty do.

cheers

[rustynail]

I agree with what your saying. If I was in YOUR situation (larger production) I would get insurance too, because I'd FEAR all of it as well. Lawyers,… all the dramas. And because you've had 12years of rugby, I'd FEAR having to face you on the field. I used to play rugby as a kid, and I'm not keen on being tagged in a scrum. I was a front forward, and I know it didn't mean anything, but I still don't appreciate my nuts being grabbed by the second rower. …..Do have a fantasy of playing rugby against a team of naked women though.

I just have a problem with alarmist decisions. A general one. I want to make decisions on accuracy. not heresay…etc.

Would it be too much to ask what the chair that failed looked like ?

Sorry mate , I was already typing when you asked the question. The chair my uncle met his demise on was a Colonial style Whitesides pattern.Spade back, turned front legs, full length rectangular section back legs. Australian red cedar through out and mortise and tenon construction. One back leg failed mid way up bottom section.
Mate, I am not being alarmist. My last post gives some insight how the unforeseen can easily happen. Even if you are totally innocent of all blame, as in the case of my mate. It is still going to cost you big time to prove it.
If you think insurance people are A$$$holes, wait until you get involved with the legal profession. When you meet a good lawyer, shoot the barstarted before he turns bad!
If it was me, I would see someone about your fantasy. As a front rower, what you would be facing would be a horrible sight. Now five eighth is a very different matter indeed! The rules of the game would also have to change. ie "Props must bind to the jursey of the opposing player." And if you think I am going to recommend you as a prime candidate for the Rules Board, you've got another think coming!

[JDarvall]

Aprocotripper,
Some documented evidence on the last one would be appreciated.
In my business I offer (begrudgingly) chair repair. That was a big mistake. You should see some of the crap people want a fresh breath of life injected into! But it is an ego boosting challenge to sometimes be able to achieve what others think impossible. I would much rather make a new one.
Interestingly, a large percentage of the chairs sent to me for repair are Windsors. Usually good ones, well made but getting a little long in the tooth. The most usual problems are seat split, Bow delam and glue failure. But wait for it, heres the doozy, borer attack! Even in relatively new chairs due to the propensity of makers using greenish timber. But that doesnt mean seasoned timber wont be attacked, it will. Our borers love oak and many of the other timbers popular for Windsor style chairs. Blind felling shakes dont always go the full width of the piece. They often can remain intact until the timber dries enough so the fibres shrink back allowing the invisible crack to open. If this situation were to occur in a back bow, and it was in the concave part of the bow, no one would know until someone leaned back in the chair.
There are many areas for failure in chairs. The longer you have been repairing them the more areas you become aware of. The old English chairmaker that taught me the art said, " Never ask a chair maker what is wrong with his chair, he will tell you nothing, either literally or figuratively, ask a chair repairer." He was right...He was always right.
To be honest mate, depending on your assets, you would be an ideal candidate. Just a thought. No threat intended nor implied.

I understand your thoughts. Chairs break definitely. There's no getting around it.

My earlier chairs I have on the veranda where there hit with hot aussie sun(kills everything eh) and the rain that comes in. And it has been an education to watch them degrade over a few years. And I got a bit of each what you've mentioned there…..small glue split in centre of one, end grain seat split. Got a small tension splits on one of the crests.

The ones left indoor had no problems (excepting stupid early mistakes I made). excepting small stepping occasionally on leg ends coming out of the seat (which doesn't bother me, but other woodworkers definitely want to point out) . So there indoor chairs.

The glue seat splits, tension splits in bends, and stepping I feel I've delt with, with new techniques.
I don't laminate, and I don't kiln the bends to speed up setting , as I realised that actually causes problems in itself. Ended up with bends set more consistently but reluctantly (so they'd split latter) ...so I just sequential build every chair, rain man like, because theres little consistency in my bends. Which is not practical, cause each joints different, but you end up with stable bends, because they dry where they want. The chairs end up more individual anyway.

I don't use green timber, as it makes life too inconsistent and its not necessary. But I do kiln tenons before fits. And I've got a couple other tricks to lock up joints. Stretcher compression is the key for all undercarriage joints.

I don't understand how felling shake wouldn't be noticed. Every chair I sit in to reshape the spindles individually after glue up for comfort. Must get in and out of the same chair bout 50 times. uno sit, feel where it sticks in my back, shave it, test adjustment.on and on. If the chairs going to go I would think then. And I'm not convinced felling shake wouldn't reveal itself during the bending. bending forces find the faults very quickly. But maybe there's something there I could learn from you.

But (I'm sorry) I still doubt the frequency of injury to be anything to worry about. Even with exposure to the weather I can't foresee sudden failure that has someone crashing to the floor. I feel there will be warning signs with my chairs even after a few decades.

The legs don't seem to go at all. If the grains not straight or strong they won't bend without failure. The process selects only best pieces for you.

Also I don't use traditional oaks. Get rubbished for it, but aussie timbers are actually better IF you get them to bend. Generally stronger.

The odds still aren't available. I make new chairs so I understand ones suspicion, cause I gota sell them, but how many have died from a windsor ? (in particular a windsor out of a dense aussie hardwood whose undercarriage is in stretcher compression)

[Evanism]

Much discussion! This is not an ignorant question I first asked.

Chairs are tormented their entire lives and will always end up broken. I've never seen a chair that was worn away.

There are three reasons I made the query:

- First, I'm a small operator literally doing piecemeal work. I'm not commercial. Just a guy in a shed who gets repeatedly asked to make things.
- Second, these little chairs are being sold to Mosman-mums and Toorak-mums. Deep Chardonnay paranoia makes them think their Very Special Motzarts and fairy princesses are the most precious in the world. They are Rottweilers without brains and I don't want to engage them. Period (lived in Mosman Sydney for 20 years)
- Third, I've had the very distinct displeasure of living in Canberra for 2 years. The local Canberra Times is a riot of Other World delusion. The public servants here live in a very intense reality distortion field and sue for every stubbed toe and paper cut as if it was an assault on their lives. Blame is 100% allocated to others. People falling off chairs get lottery payouts. An actual injury recently, which was that persons own fault, and TOLD not to do it, was rewarded an obscene kings ransom. So it happens.

I fear it will be expensive and therefor I will turn down the work.

It makes me angry, because here we have yet another example of work being shipped off overseas and manufacturing, on any scale, stopped because "it's all too hard".