Hello! Help me decide on a Table saw. Laguna Fusion or TSC-10HB

[Scoobasteve]

Hello all, have been lurking for awhile sucking up all the knowledge shared around here.
I am trying to decide between two tablesaws at the moment both within $30 of each other at the moment ( or at least until the end of August)
The Carbatec TSC-10HB on sale at the moment for $1750 TSC-10HB Heavy Duty Cabinet Saw : CARBA-TEC
The Laguna Fusion Rip Gregory Machinery - Laguna Tablesaw - Fusion Rip Tablesaw
Budget runs to about $1800, space not really an issue.
I am a novice getting back into it after many years.
Look forward to some suggestions, advice and maybe even some alternatives.
Thanks.

[NCArcher]

I have a GPW 10/12 which I am very happy with. But no-one seems to have these now. Of the current crop of saws, I like the Harvey. A lot of machine for the price.

New 2013 Harvey Harvey HW110HB 30 Table Saws in Padstow, NSW Price: $1,550 <100198>

The Laguna seems a little under powered and I think the 10HB has a splitter, not a riving knife. I could be wrong on that.
Just my thoughts anyway.
A proper table saw is the best purchase I have made for the workshop. Not sure how I got anything done without the table saw. That and a decent bench but that's a whole other thread

[Binary01]

I would think the Fusion would have a slight edge over the Harvey HW110HB. Both are hybrids with around 2hp but the Fusion has base mounted trunnion were the HW110HB has table mounted.
In the Harvey range I am looking at the HW110LGE which is the next model up and a full cabinet saw. Very slightly over your budget (around $1900) but it is the same basic unit as the Laguna Platinum for less money (and same as Grizzly G0690) as best I know.
For me its Laguna Fusion vs Harvey HW110LGE-30.
Sorry I don't have any info on the Carbatec but I believe it was popular here in years gone by.

[Scoobasteve]

Thanks for the input, both the Harveys look good, especially the HW110LGE-30. I Hadn't seen those before. Unfortunately my budget wont stretch that far, I would have to include shipping as I cant seem to find a nearby dealer in Brisbane. That was one of the ticks for the tsc-10hb and laguna as I live reasonably close to a dealer and can pickup.
I'm gradually talking myself into the Laguna I think after reading some reviews.

[Binary01]

I'll probably end up with the Laguna Fusion too, but coming from an old Triton it will be a dream. I'm yet to hear a bad word about them here, and they seem to cut through hardwoods to full depth so must be powerful enough for most tasks and the 10" blade. It also goes well with sexy music Woodworking - Laguna Tools Tablesaw - Fusion - YouTube

[Dengue]

Don't be conned by a slick Laguna advertising campaign. Try emailing the manufacturer and see how long you have to wait to get a reply. Hell would have frozen over by then. Laguna are renown for their poor customer service. Just check some of the online forums for a litany of Laguna customer service complaints.

The TSC-10HB has been around for years, and is still very popular, and for good reason. I have had mine for 5 years, cannot fault it, and it gets daily use. Perhaps the only limitation is the 18mm maximum dado blade thickness. The fence is great, the motor powerful, the no-volt relay safety switch is one of the best. It is a sturdy, heavy beast, so make sure you put it on a strong mobile base.


dust collection could be better, with only a single 4" ducting outlet at the bottom of the cabinet, and sawdust tends to collect in the bottom corners of this sloping cabinet. A quick hit with compressed air from the throat area while the dust collector is running will quickly get rid of this.

This week I ripped 35mm thick hardwood, and cut 2 x 2 mm Qld Silver Ash strings on it, no worries. Same blade for both jobs.

I would have preferred a riving knife instead of the splitter plate, but the large splitter plate works and follows when the blade is inclined. The anti-kickback pawls on the splitter plate are excellent, work really well. You will have to take the splitter plate off if using a dado blade to do rabbets or slots, but that is quickly and easily done.

A word of advice. Whatever tablesaw you end up with, make a zero clearance insertion plate for each blade kerf width you will be using, and get a Micro Jig "Grr-ripper. The Grr-ripper will allow you to work so much more safely, and do things with the tablesaw ( and router table) that you would not otherwise be able to do safely.

[RoyG]

Hello all, have been lurking for awhile sucking up all the knowledge shared around here.
I am trying to decide between two tablesaws at the moment both within $30 of each other at the moment ( or at least until the end of August)
The Carbatec TSC-10HB on sale at the moment for $1750 TSC-10HB Heavy Duty Cabinet Saw : CARBA-TEC
The Laguna Fusion Rip Gregory Machinery - Laguna Tablesaw - Fusion Rip Tablesaw
Budget runs to about $1800, space not really an issue.
I am a novice getting back into it after many years.
Look forward to some suggestions, advice and maybe even some alternatives.
Thanks.

Greetings Scoobasteve,

I've owned a Laguna Fusion since around October 2013. I did a mini review - refer to https://www.woodworkforums.com/f153/10-table-saws-post-model-rating-10-a-185466 - my post was on the 12 June 2014. You might find other posts in that link to be useful as well.

I inspected both the Harvey and the Laguna saws (and many others) before purchasing the Laguna. It is true that the Harvey saw looks roughly similar to the Laguna, and as some have suggested, they may possibly be made in the same factory. But that is no indication that the two different brand saws are made to the same specification. There are a number of very significant improvements on the Laguna that make it (in my humble opinion) a better saw. These include: A better motor mounting, the riving knife design, the general fit and finish of the machine, and more. Straight out of the crate, the saw blade was perfectly aligned to both the slots and the fence, and after ten months of use, the fence to blade and blade to slots alignment is still spot on. Alignment of teh side tables on assembly was perfect - no need for shimming like I've seen required on some machines.

I do note a few minor issues in the above mini-review post, but I've since found out that both issues can be overcome. There is a company in the USA (I can supply the company name if needed) who supply thin kerf riving knives for the Laguna Fusion, which allow me to use the old 10" thin kerf blades that I have left over from my old table saw. The Laguna branded Zero Clearance Inserts are a bit expensive. I have now mastered the art of making my own from MDF. They are a complexish shape, but once you make a set of templates, they are easily made on a router table.

The motor is plenty powerful enough. I've done both rip and cross cuts at maximum thickness in Forest Red Gum, and with a good blade the motor does not slow down at all. I emphasise - you must use a good blade. The blade that comes with the saw is a no-name 20ish tooth rip blade. It is a rubbish blade. (I've ended up making a workshop clock out of mine. Buy a decent set of saw blades when you buy the machine.

I also use an 8 inch Dado Stack with the Laguna. 3/4" x 3/4" dados in hardwood, ply or MDF are easily done in a single pass.

Dust extraction ducting inside the saw is pretty good. In the ten months I've been using it, there has been only a very tiny amount of sawdust build-up on the blade tilt and blade lift mechanism, so the dust extraction ducting must be doing a fairly good job. I have the saw hooked up to a 2HP generic dust extractor, which is plenty powerful enough to suck the waste away.

As far as vendor support is concerned......

• I have nothing but praise for Gregory Machinery. They respond to my questions promptly and with good information. Their pre-sales support is excellent. However, I have found that you should always telephone (or if practical visit) Gregory Machinery, as they do not always respond promptly to emails generated by their Web Site's "Enquiries" Form. Use the telephone - talk to someone - I've always had good results that way.
• I have contacted Laguna USA once about an accessory that is not imported in Australia. Laguna USA's response was prompt and helpful, and offered to sell and ship the normally USA only accessory to Australia. But, Laguna USA did stress in their reply that Gregory Machinery are the Australian agents and that all my enquiries should go to Gregory Machinery or their resellers. Fair enough.

You should bear in mind that amongst woodworkers, when it comes to discussions comparing brands of woodworking machinery, there is almost always a "Ford versus Holden" style of argument that develops. (Go Ford Laguna !!!! ) Just like some "Ford vs Holden" arguments, that can get almost religious in their fervour; sometimes woodworkers' discussions about their favourite machinery brands, and the brands that a person doesn't particularly like, can sometimes get just as emotional.

That said, when I post on this forum, on any subject regarding machinery or tool reviews, I try as hard as possible to provide an unbiased review, based on my actual hands-on experiences with the equipment. My opinions are not based on what I've read, what I've seen at a trade show, what my next door neighbor's cousin said they experienced experienced, or some other indirect source of information.

If you decide to buy the Laguna Fusion, I personally don't think you'll be disappointed.

Regards,

Roy

[Scoobasteve]

Thank you Roy for your input. I did eventually go with the Laguna. After work getting in the way I have finally assembled it. No real issues apart from the measuring tape on the front rail out slightly,when assembled according to the manual. That is easily fixed by moving the rail slightly or replacing tape. Off to buy some good blades now which is another question...

[RoyG]

Thank you Roy for your input. I did eventually go with the Laguna. After work getting in the way I have finally assembled it. No real issues apart from the measuring tape on the front rail out slightly,when assembled according to the manual. That is easily fixed by moving the rail slightly or replacing tape. Off to buy some good blades now which is another question...

Enjoy you new big boy's toy ....

Regards,

Roy

[meherenow7]

I do note a few minor issues in the above mini-review post, but I've since found out that both issues can be overcome. There is a company in the USA (I can supply the company name if needed) who supply thin kerf riving knives for the Laguna Fusion, which allow me to use the old 10" thin kerf blades that I have left over from my old table saw. The Laguna branded Zero Clearance Inserts are a bit expensive. I have now mastered the art of making my own from MDF. They are a complexish shape, but once you make a set of templates, they are easily made on a router table.

Hi Roy,

I have just purchased a Laguna Fusion table saw, mainly thanks to yourself and other reviews on this great site. I have ordered a Dado set and note that you have 'mastered' making your own inserts to use with the dado set.

First question, would you consider making some to sell to me and if so, how much for each? I'd probably get a couple of them it you do and they are a reasonable price.

Secondly, if your not able to sell any, could you please show some photo's or describe the technique to make some myself please?

I've order a Freud dial a dado set, which I may not be able to use the whole set with anyway because of the arbor length on the Fusion, but I will probably still need a couple of new inserts.

Thanks,
Mat.

[RoyG]

Hi Roy,

I have just purchased a Laguna Fusion table saw, mainly thanks to yourself and other reviews on this great site. I have ordered a Dado set and note that you have 'mastered' making your own inserts to use with the dado set.

First question, would you consider making some to sell to me and if so, how much for each? I'd probably get a couple of them it you do and they are a reasonable price.

Secondly, if your not able to sell any, could you please show some photo's or describe the technique to make some myself please?

I've order a Freud dial a dado set, which I may not be able to use the whole set with anyway because of the arbor length on the Fusion, but I will probably still need a couple of new inserts.

Thanks,
Mat.

Mat,

Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to help by making you some Zero Clearance Dado Inserts, as my shed time is very limited at the moment. I do actually need to make some more myself when I manage to get back to the shed in a month or so, because I destroyed my last home-made insert a few weeks ago by running a 1/2" dado blade in an insert that had previously cut for 3/4 inch - a bit of scrap must have got down between the blade and the insert and - bang - the insert was in pieces. Moral of the story - avoid brown undies moments by using the right sized zero clearance dado insert with your dado blade.

So, as a result, I can't show you any photos of the inserts that I've been making, as I currently have none left. But - I'll run through how I make them, and what I used as the starting point for what is a Zero Clearance Insert with a complex shape.

To allow the dado blade to be raised up to make a maximum depth cut, the Zero Clearance Insert needs to be strategically thinned out on the rear side of the insert. With the first few inserts I made, I was guessing how much and where to thin out the back of the inserts. The result was that the inserts either rubbed on part of the arbour assembly when the blade was raised, or I'd thinned out the insert too much, and it was not strong enough.

So to get myself a starting point, and as I needed a working Zero Clearance Insert in a hurry for a job, I lashed out and bought a Laguna branded one from Gregory Machinery. Once I had the manufacturer's zero clearance insert in my hands, I could see exactly where it needed to be thinned out, and by how much, which made making my own zero clearance inserts a breeze.

The following are photographs of both sides of the manufacturer supplied Zero Clearance Dado Insert for the Laguna Fusion.

20150121_162701.jpg20150121_162714.jpg


To date, I've been using Melamine surfaced MDF to make the inserts. I bought a sheet with bright yellow melamine so I retain the safety aspect of the red coloured insert - any bright colour will do to remind you to keep your paws away from the blade. The MDF starts off at roughly 3/4 inch, but I thin it down to the thickness required using a bottom cutting router bit. I used the store bought insert to make a few very simple and rudimentary routing templates. Last time I made a batch of four inserts in one go, as once you've cobbled together the rough templates, the process is fairly quick. The MDF inserts don't last as long as the Phenolic Resin like material that the Laguna Inserts are made from, so I've been experimenting with alternative materials - more later. A friend makes inserts for his tablesaw using marine ply that he has glued laminex onto, so that's another material that works OK.

Making the inserts is actually pretty straight forward. I do the initial cut to rough shape on the bandsaw. The rest of the work happens with the router and a bearing guided flush trim bit, and a bearing guided rebating/bottom cutting bit, running against the templates. I thin ot non critical areas of teh underside of the insert using free-hand routing. I make my inserts a bit simpler than the Laguna example - as I cut the recess that accommodates the arbour assembly on the back of the insert with a flat bottom, rather than the curved bottom in the Laguna item. I do the routing on a router table, but you could probably design a process that would also allow you to do the cuts safely with a hand-held router, if you don't have access to a router table.

The Laguna insert appears to have been thinned out around the dado blade to accommodate the diameter of a 10" Dado Blade. If you're using an 8" dado blade, you don't need to thin out around the Dado Blade as much as Laguna does, and you won't need as much area thinned out as the Laguna Insert. The finger hole is a straight forward drilling operation. I make the Oval shaped hole that fits over the hold down toggle screw, using a forstner fit to cut the recess, and then freehand cut with a straight router bit to cut the slot.

To level the Insert, I got some 4mm diameter approx 12mm long allen headed grub screws from a local industrial fasteners place. They cost me about $10 for a small bag that will last me a few years. I drill the MDF and then use a Tap to cut the 4mm thread for the grub screws. The grub screws do a good job of levelling the insert. To ensure that the grub screws don't move after they've been set, I drop some thin CA glue on the protruding thread where it comes out of the underside of the insert. I've since been told that if you can get BA threaded grub screws that are closest to the metric size that I used, then you'll get a finer pitch thread that provides a much finer adjustment when levelling the insert. The metric thread is a bit of a course adjustment when levelling the inserts.

The Laguna Insert has two grub screws that go into the rear end face of the insert (i.e. the end face that is furtherest away from the operator. These grub screws are adjusted to remove any back and forth free play in the insert - so I copied that feature on my inserts.

The Laguna Insert has no facility for holding down the back end of the insert - that is the end of the insert that is furtherest away from the operator. The end of the insert that is nearest the operator is securely held down by the Toggle Headed Screw, but the back end tends to ride up a bit sometimes. To overcome this, I use epoxy to glue a small piece of about 1/16" thick metal (whatever I can find in the scrap bin) onto the rear underside of the insert, so that I have a tab which will hook under the table to ensure that the insert doesn't lift up. I leave the inserts with no cutout for the Dado Blade until I'm ready to use the insert the first time.

As I mentioned earlier in this post, the Melamine MDF inserts don't last as long as the Laguna inserts which are made of some sort of Phenolic Resin based material. I've tried making one insert from HDPE (High Density Poly Ethylene). Carbatec sell the stuff in various shapes, but it isn't cheap from them. I used a white kitchen cutting board that I got from Target. According to the label it was made from HDPE, and it was only $7.99 for an 10" x 14" cutting board 3/4" thick. The HDPE machines easily with ordinary router bits designed for wood, although I found it best to turn the router speed down for best quality cuts. The resulting HDPE Insert was sort of OK, but in my opinion were not suitable for purpose, as the HDPE was not stiff enough once I'd thinned out the rear (underneath) side of the insert. One advantage is that the HDPE is really slippery, so if it could be made stiff enough, it would make great inserts.

I'm now looking for some Phenolic Resin sheet material. I've seen some advertised on Ebay, but haven't yet gone as far as buying any - that'll happen in a month or so when I get back in the shed. Rockler sell some Phenolic Resin sheet material (http://www.rockler.com/phenolic-table-saw-insert-kit), but it's expensive to start with, and the freight from the USA definitely makes it uneconomical. That said, I've still got some melamine MDF on hand so I'll probably use that up before trying the Phenolic Sheet material.

Hope that information helps.

Regards,

Roy

[meherenow7]

Hi Roy,
Thank you so much for your detailed reply, greatly appreciated. I see now why the Laguna inserts are so expensive, that phenolic resin material is darn expensive!

I too would have thought a HDPE cutting board would be a good stand in for the phenolic material, but sounds like it lacks the rigidity needed when thinned out.

For now I think i'll just have to bear the cost and buy a couple of genuine inserts and at least that way I should be able to make my own templates for future opportunities to make my own inserts once a suitable material is found.

I wonder if something like making a mould the same shape and thickness of the insert, then lay a piece of laminate in the mould and then pouring resin into the mould on top of the laminate. You could even pour a thin layer, let it set, lay a piece of glass/carbon fibre cloth and then repeat until the mould is full. Just not sure if the resin would be suitable for routing, cutting & drilling and how brittle it would be.

Anyway. Thanks again.
Mat.

[RoyG]

Hi Roy,

I too would have thought a HDPE cutting board would be a good stand in for the phenolic material, but sounds like it lacks the rigidity needed when thinned out.

Anyway. Thanks again.
Mat.

On thinking about it further, I've decided to give the HDPE another go, as back when I did the last test, I was still thinning the inserts out to the same thickness as the Laguna ones. You only need to thin out the insert by about half as much as Laguna does if you're only using 8" dado blades. So, if the HDPE is thinned out only just enough, then it might be stiff enough. Only a test will tell for sure.

Roy

[meherenow7]

On thinking about it further, I've decided to give the HDPE another go, as back when I did the last test, I was still thinning the inserts out to the same thickness as the Laguna ones. You only need to thin out the insert by about half as much as Laguna does if you're only using 8" dado blades. So, if the HDPE is thinned out only just enough, then it might be stiff enough. Only a test will tell for sure.

Roy

Look forward to hearing how you go with it. Good luck!

Mat.

[meherenow7]

After purchasing a couple of the genuine Laguna Fusion replacement inserts, I don't think I could ever make something as good a quality and solid as them.

It's also disappointing that the replacement inserts are way sturdier than the original that comes with the saw!

Still, would be great to make my own if it were cheaper.