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  1. #1
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    Default GIS beach cruising mods

    Hello. I have purchased the plans for the GIS and wish to build it as a row/sail beach cruiser. I appreciate what has been said about keeping the overall weight of construction down, but optimum race performance is not my primary goal. I have also read up on the issues around installing side seats aft and also the need for some water-weight in a boat recovered from a capsize. That being said, after viewing the various videos of the GIS being recovered from various dunkings, I feel there is too much water left in the boat for my liking given the areas I will be travelling in and too much work involved in removing it. I would like to tank over the whole front end of the boat from the mid seat forwards at seat level and make it hatch accessible for gear. The weight gain here would be small ( keeping in mind that my boat weight can vary considerably considering what assortment of camping gear I choose to bring). A tanked front end might affect the trim of a recovered boat if it results in a rear cockpit filled with water and a dry front end. I thought to deal with this using gunnel air bags located aft, yeilding a boat that floats higher and level on its side horizontally when tipped over. I am also impressed with the short (3-4 foot long) outriggers or amas such as those used by Solway Dory. I have used these on some of my sailing canoes with good success. (these are traditional Canadian tripping canoes, not like Beth, and the use of the amas was to aid in preventing capsize more than in recovering from it) Any thoughts on these adaptations to the GIS given my desire to use it for beach cruising? Any other mods that have been done? Thanks, Allan.

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  3. #2
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    Default GIS beach cruising mods

    Hi Allan!
    I am building a GIS and have no experience of sailing one. That said, I have been sailing small boats for all my life and being an academic read almost everything that has been written about the GIS and quite a bit about boat design, so I'm at least not totally ignorant. This is my take on answering your questions.

    Regarding weight, it's not primarily an issue for those few who want to go around a racecourse as fast as possible, but a light boat is easy to handle on land, and apparently the GIS is quite close to the magic limit where it gets too cumbersome. Mine is built to plan, with good ply but not with the lightest of timber. At the moment it is at perhaps 90% of its predicted final weight (no inwales or knees, not coated, but with quite a few extra clamps) and my wife can lift and carry her end, but have note dared to turn it around in the air. I would not want any extra weight that would turn it into a boat that needs a trailer and can't be carried up a beach if need is. A well sailing boat is also a fun and safe boat.

    Regarding how it will float turned to its side and water filled, I'd do some calculations or of you are more of a practical type, maybe a simple scale model?

    My general thoughts is that the GIS is designed to be a fast, fun, simple to build, economical sailboat, mostly for daysailing that can be rowed. That it turned out looking beautiful might have been at least partly luck, but is in my opinion a big part in the success. In capable hands it has shown itself to be a good RAID or coastal cruising boat. I think that modifications like side seats, decks etc. is trying to make it into something that it wasn't intended to be and while your decking idea might work for you, my guess is that it would be better som build something that was designed to be closer to what you want. For instance, if the GIS in it current state is thought to be a bit tippy when moving forward to reef, imagine how unstable it will be if your weight is applied 35 cm or so higher up in the boat?
    If you have looked at the capsize and bail videos available, you would have noticed that GIS typically capsize when singlehanded or sailed very hard (as in competing around a racecourse). My take is that capsizing a GIS is quite avoidable by reefing early and keeping on you toes. You do not hear stories of cruising GISes capsizing but of people capsizing when they are trying to find the limits of how much sail they can have and how bad weather they can cope with or just having fun knowing they are at or beyond the limit.

    Please do not add training wheels to the GIS! I am sure it won't need them, in fact if the beaches you intend to sail to and from is similar to beaches in Sweden, where I live, rather than the beaches of Hawaii with huge waves and open sea, I think the GIS will do fine as designed.

    Pontus
    (Edited for silly spelling, thanks sumbloak (sp?))

  4. #3
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    Welcome aboard abrown!

    I'm with Pontus on this. You may have a better experience with a design that's closer to your requirements from the outset. What other designs did you consider when choosing the GIS? I'm not a sail boat encyclopedia like many others on this forum so I can't offer specific designs as alternative suggestions. But I would caution against fundamentally altering ANY boat to match it to one's needs. The GIS is not sacred and many of us have deviated from the plan in one way or another. I guess the most comprehensive deviation was the yawl variation. In that case, the capabilities of the mizzen seemed to complement and broaden the base design's strengths. It was the result of several voices describing a similar need, and involved the designer's consent and collaboration.

    Maybe this thread will spark similar discussion and lead to similar development of a variation that many others might adopt. But I think there may be more pitfalls than solutions.

    I'm interested in how the discussion progresses.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Dave
    StorerBoat Builder, Sailor, Enthusiast
    Dave's GIS Chronicles | Dave's Lugs'l Chronicles | Dave's StorerBoat Forum Thread

  5. #4
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    Hello. Thank you both for your thoughts. I tried to keep my initial post brief and yet cover all the bases but in response to some of your questions here is a little more info. For the past thirty-five years or so I have been enjoying Canada's lakes and rivers by canoe and sea kayak. Somewhere in there I got hooked on fixed seat wilderness rowing. I am fortuneate to live near our Great Lakes like Huron and Georgian Bay and the North Channel and so I have a great playground for extended rowing cruises. At present my preferred mode of travel is rowing and the boats I usually take out are a Georgian Bay rowing skiff by Rossiter boats called a Louden, A Skua by Middlepath boats and an Adirondak guide boat. The first two weigh in the 120-130 lb range and I am very comfortable handling them alone on the beach. The Guide boat is in Kevlar and weighs 60-70 lbs and is easily portaged. But my favourite boat for rowing is an 18 foot, y sterned, cedar canvas, Chestnut Prospector canoe built by Hugh Stewart at Headwater Canoes. Most canoes make for really good rowing boats and I row virtually all of mine from time to time. If you travel solo by canoe, having the option to row asures you of being able to handle almost any wind condition you may encounter and not become windbound. Most canoeists experiment with sailing using a poncho or tarp at some point, and so have I. But a few years ago I got a dedicated lug sale, rudder and leeboard for my canoes and entered the world of sailing. It was a revelation! I got bitten by the bug and enjoyed a few summers learning the ropes. I tried out all of my canoes and rowboats with the rig before deciding on the Prospector as the row/paddle/sail solo boat of choice. 18 feet long, 38 inches wide, 15 inches deep weighing in at about 120 lbs ( I can solo portage this boat but the weight is getting up there!). I started with a 45 sq ft lug and moved up to a 70 the next summer. I just love sailing and rowing canoes and this boat for me is my ultimate form of beach cruiser.
    But with a beam of 38 inches, the sailing experience is a little different than in a dedicated sailboat. This past year I obtained and refinished a used Mirror Dinghy and sailed it all summer. Once again my sailing world expanded! I now want to try something a bit larger and different than the Mirror that is a proven sailboat, but the catch is it must be something that I can row . (Not just something you can move about with oars, but something you could actually travel with.) I have looked at many( perhaps "every" design) I like the various Faering style double enders out there but wonder if they may be a bit too close to what I already have. I like the Scamp. Those videos of it coming up virtually dry from capsize tests are pretty impressive ( I have to admit that a dry boat after capsize appeals to me). But as for seriously rowing a Scamp I think it is a no go. I Also like Ross Lillstones Phoenix designs and the Dix Argie 15. ( And if I havent mentioned them I am at least aware of all of the others out there.) I settled on the Goat for all of the usual reasons - cost, ease of build, looks, it sails and rows and harder to pin down, but I appreciate the feel, philosophy and attitude that goes on here, and though I have never met or spoke with him, I would say I am taken by Mik.

    I don't want water in my boat, so I thought the tanked front would deal with this. (You can do this in the Argie 15). The small piece of plywood required would be a very minimal weight. I did not plan on doing aft side seats as I understand how this impacts on hiking out, But I have had great luck with airbags mounted midship in my canoes. They make for very easy,dry recoveries. Getting the boat floating high and level on its side seems key to righting it without much water inside. The gear I would have inside would give weight and some stability to the righted boat. I don't think of the amas as training wheels (No offence taken ) They are a useful tool on a narrow 34-38 inch sailing canoe for dealing with gusts.And although not their primary purpose, they do aid in recovery. (As do inflatable sponsons).
    This is where I am at then. I was keen to see any thoughts on this before I get started. I appreciate all of your input and hope that you also benefit from the discussion. Allan

  6. #5
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    I'd forget the outriggers. Regarding rowing, you'd probably find a Goat rows more like a Mirror than like a canoe. Goats are built to sail. Oars are mainly just for when there's no wind.

    You could simply raise the fore and aft tanks to the sheer. That would help recovery, with minimal weight penalty.
    You know you're making progress when there's sawdust in your coffee.

  7. #6
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    Sounds like you have a nice little boat collection! I too very much like rowing, our current boat is a Terhi Saiman, which while being very much not made from wood is quite nice. Two pairs of oars makes rowing easy with the whole family onboard.
    Yes amas on a canoe makes sense.
    You obviously have given it much thought and by all means give it a try. Water in the boat and how to avoid it is a question that pops up now and then so if you find a satisfactory solution many will be interested. I still think that the GIS will be stable enough as it is and that capsizing can be avoided. An idea might be to build it more or less as designed, but plan to make retrofitting a foredeck possible if you feel the likelihood of tipping over too high?
    Pontus


    Goatislandskiffingothenburg.blogspot.com

  8. #7
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    Hello all. I am lucky enough to have amassed a fleet over the years that is bigger than any one has a right to - and now I have discovered sailboats! As I tell my wife - you wouldn't have just one golf club in your bag - you need a whole set of clubs to deal with a variety of situations. In Canada some of us travel with a thing called a wannigan. It is a wooden box about the size of a cooler that holds all of your hard gear like pots and pans, stoves and cutlery, things that wouldn't feel comfortable or might get damaged in a pack. the regular wannigan is just square, but for my Chestnut canoe I made a pair that matches the curve of the hull and rises as high as the gunnels. One sits up front in the boat and the other aft. They have watertight hatches. So they are in effect removeable watertight compartments that give the craft a lot of contained airspace. I use regular whitewater air bags for the very ends of the boat. These wannigans might add to the weight of an already heavy canoe but I look at my sailing speed this way- If I can sail as fast as I can row or even only a little bit faster, I am now ahead in the row/cruising game. I am completely open to learning to sail faster. My thought was to either make similar style storage units for the GIS or a single removeable lid for the front area. I would have to make sure that this was pretty infallibly water tight though. I had thought about raising the heights of the existing tanks and might revisit this, but one thought I had about this is that it might be nice to sit on the aft compartment from time to time and raising it might put an end to this. Thank you again for your thoughts. Allan

  9. #8
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    Howdy Allan,

    Pretty much what the others said.

    The GIS, in a canoeing sense is like a Wee Lassie or Sairy Gamp. Very stripped down and basic.

    These are very significant changes to the boat. It is a good idea to talk to me before buying the plans. Very glad you dropped by here.

    I'll flip you some things here that should fit in with your canoe and kayak experience.

    The GIS is a very simple and light boat and should be kept that way. It works because of lightness and simplicity.

    The lightness and simplicity is not about race winning performance as pontus stated - that is a corollary of the type of boat it is and how it keeps out of trouble.

    For your needs it makes the best sense to pick a boat with a bit more waterplane area which will sink down less with the proposed mods and gear.

    The goat can certainly carry a weight, as we showed in the Texas 200 - camping gear - water, equipment for shade, food and it handled it OK. But we could see that much more loading might cause problems with bow immersion which might mess up the nice steering, particularly in waves downwind.

    So weight in that case is Goat plus payload.

    Your suggestion is Goat plus mods plus payload, and I think you would run out of displacement plus be shifting the centre of gravity somewhat forward which would increase the pitching of the boat in waves

    Goat can carry four adults and still sail nicely, but one chooses one's days for that sort of use - day cruises and picnics - not adventure sailing when you have to accept the conditions that come along.

    Additionally going up on the extended foredeck to sort something stuck would just about mean a definite capsize

    I will send you a PM or email discussing a little more.

    An alternative boat which I have a lot of respect for are the Graham Byrnes B and Bs (Coresounds). They have some of the lighter construction ideas (we are both Australian so we can't help it) but a much bigger waterplane and are already set up pretty well as you describe.

    This is a link to the 15 - http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs15.htm

    Despite the drop in size (4 inches) it is a much bigger boat than the GiS in every way. And it is not a slouch. There are also larger versions.

    Hope this helps!

    Best wishes
    Michael Storer

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Howdy Allan,

    Pretty much what the others said.

    The GIS, in a canoeing sense is like a Wee Lassie or Sairy Gamp. Very stripped down and basic.

    These are very significant changes to the boat. It is a good idea to talk to me before buying the plans. Very glad you dropped by here.

    I'll flip you some things here that should fit in with your canoe and kayak experience.

    The GIS is a very simple and light boat and should be kept that way. It works because of lightness and simplicity.

    The lightness and simplicity is not about race winning performance as pontus stated - that is a corollary of the type of boat it is and how it keeps out of trouble.

    For your needs it makes the best sense to pick a boat with a bit more waterplane area which will sink down less with the proposed mods and gear.

    The goat can certainly carry a weight, as we showed in the Texas 200 - camping gear - water, equipment for shade, food and it handled it OK. But we could see that much more loading might cause problems with bow immersion which might mess up the nice steering, particularly in waves downwind.

    So weight in that case is Goat plus payload.

    Your suggestion is Goat plus mods plus payload, and I think you would run out of displacement plus be shifting the centre of gravity somewhat forward which would increase the pitching of the boat in waves

    Goat can carry four adults and still sail nicely, but one chooses one's days for that sort of use - day cruises and picnics - not adventure sailing when you have to accept the conditions that come along.

    Additionally going up on the extended foredeck to sort something stuck would just about mean a definite capsize

    I will send you a PM or email discussing a little more.

    An alternative boat which I have a lot of respect for are the Graham Byrnes B and Bs (Coresounds). They have some of the lighter construction ideas (we are both Australian so we can't help it) but a much bigger waterplane and are already set up pretty well as you describe.

    This is a link to the 15 - http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs15.htm

    Despite the drop in size (4 inches) it is a much bigger boat than the GiS in every way. And it is not a slouch. There are also larger versions.

    Hope this helps!

    Best wishes
    Michael Storer
    I'm not sure you'd run out of displacement as Mik said. You're talking solo camp cruising right? Mik's Texas 200 experience includes supplies and camping gear plus a Texan as well, if you are sailing solo you could add supplies for a whole summer before you're up to their crew plus gear plus boat displacement on that trip.

    I agree the GIS as is isn't right in terms of absolute self rescue ability when beyond outside help, it takes in too much water and you'd have a fair chance of being in trouble not being able to get the water out quicker than it was coming in or capsizing again and again.

    I modified my GIS by making my middle seat quite a bit wider and boxing it in fore and aft so there is at least 250 litres of additional buoyancy in the middle of the boat. I still need to bail after a capsize, but at most 10 or 15 cm of water and the boat stays stable throughout. I can reliably self rescue in a full gale in the middle of a big and long lake, I've done so in conditions when it was blowing williwaws down the middle of the lake.

    I plan to do some camp cruising in mine, haven't done so yet (young family). I could get a lot of gear in that middle space, then a couple of dry bags for gear tied down in the space forward of the middle seat / compartment would add to capsized buoyancy.

    A big plus of the GIS for this sort of use is mainly the light weight when it comes to getting it up a beach on your own. You lose that however if you have all your gear in compartments from where it is hard to unload, you might be better with it in a couple of big dry bags that can be carried up separately. Negatives from my point of view for this type of use include difficulty going to windward when you're getting pounded by waves - partly the light weight but also the big flat bottom and side panels. Also it takes a lot of concentration to sail it as things get interesting - there's no letting the boat take care of itself, you don't spend much time just sailing along sitting in the boat, so you get worn out mentally in the end if you have a long way to go to get to somewhere safe.

    I think you're probably better with a different design for what you want to do, Welsfords Walkabout would be my pick, more decks and room to sleep down the middle with the offset 'centre' board, easy to add water or sandbag ballast in that space beside the centreboard when sailing and turf it overboard for rowing / beaching.

    If you were going with your long foredeck, you'd need to build first with temporary MDF bulkheads in the usual places, establish the shape of the hull then sort the position and height of the bulkheads you want before putting in the permanent ones. You'd also have to mock up the centreboard case first to get the height matching that extended seat top. The tops of the existing bulkheads don't form a plane you could just put a deck over as is.

    Ian

  11. #10
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    Thank you Ian and others for your comments. I like the idea of an enlarged middle seat tank. My solo camping kit is quite minimal and should fit in there. In reading back over the posts in this thread it strikes me that I may not have accurately described my intentions. I would like to build a goat because it is a good sailboat and a relatively quick and easy build. I also like how it looks. I will enjoy just taking it out for a sail but since I am also in to beach cruising I was thinking about what mods I might make during building that would be useful to that end. I appreciate that there may be better designs out there for cruising but this was not the type of boat I was interested in building at present. I appreciate your real life experience with the middle tank area, it was just what I was after. I would also like to thank Mik here for an extremely gracious personal email that he sent me, above and beyond the call of duty. Allan

  12. #11
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    Howdy,

    The initial post did make it seem like there were changes of a type and size that would make it easy to lose the things that make it a Goat. Glad you are drawn to the simplicity of the boat and the good sailing performance.

    Ian's ideas are good ones. For cruising, under the mid seat is the best place to put gear with any weight in it. John Goodman also had a big canvas bag about 4ft x 2ft x 2ft with ply in the bottom that lashed behind the mid seat for other weighty stuff. The ply in the bottom is a neat way to keep the bag in shape and easy to search and move stuff around in.

    As far as using Ian's ideas, the mid seat area can go forward quite easily. And then there is an option that just either side be boxed in with the front access loadable area maintained in the middle. Then there's the benefit of both setups. Capsize and the buoyancy is in the right place to make the boat float higher on its side so less water inside when righted. And then the buoyancy is out to the side where it prevents water from doing the same so increasing buoyancy when righted.

    Too high floating after capsize was one of the things that undid my RAID41 design. Made it hard to get back into from the water unless you mounted successfully from the centreboard during the righting. A goat with no water in it would be very high sided requiring another bunch of changes to the design to overcome that problem.

    Hope this gives you some identifiable directions that you can use.

    Best wishes
    MIK

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Howdy,

    The initial post did make it seem like there were changes of a type and size that would make it easy to lose the things that make it a Goat. Glad you are drawn to the simplicity of the boat and the good sailing performance.

    Ian's ideas are good ones. For cruising, under the mid seat is the best place to put gear with any weight in it. John Goodman also had a big canvas bag about 4ft x 2ft x 2ft with ply in the bottom that lashed behind the mid seat for other weighty stuff. The ply in the bottom is a neat way to keep the bag in shape and easy to search and move stuff around in.

    As far as using Ian's ideas, the mid seat area can go forward quite easily. And then there is an option that just either side be boxed in with the front access loadable area maintained in the middle. Then there's the benefit of both setups. Capsize and the buoyancy is in the right place to make the boat float higher on its side so less water inside when righted. And then the buoyancy is out to the side where it prevents water from doing the same so increasing buoyancy when righted.

    Too high floating after capsize was one of the things that undid my RAID41 design. Made it hard to get back into from the water unless you mounted successfully from the centreboard during the righting. A goat with no water in it would be very high sided requiring another bunch of changes to the design to overcome that problem.

    Hope this gives you some identifiable directions that you can use.

    Best wishes
    MIK
    Hi Allan, I'll try and dig out links to threads/posts where I detailed how I boxed in the middle seat. Posts must be 4 years old or so, but are hopefully still accessible. My middle seat is more than a metre wide and boxed in front and back so at least 250 extra litres of storage and buoyancy. I needed another sheet of ply to do it - the wider middle seat won't fit on the existing cutting plan. I went with an extra sheet of 4 mm and used it for bulkheads 3 and 4 and closing off the front of that middle seat, which left enough on the 6 mm sheets to do the wide middle seat top.

    Another thing, for your described use I think it is worth going with the yawl version, a mizzen gives you a lot of options / help keeping it hove to while you recover from a capsize, bail, reef and get going again under reduced sail. You can also sail backwards using the mizzen with the main rig down if it's too windy to get any more sail up. I need to make a really small say 2 sq metre spinnaker/square/lug sail (haven't decided which yet) so I can sail down wind with the boat pointing in the proper direction when it's too windy to put up any more sail.

    Big plusses of the Goat are it's light weight for getting it up a beach on your own, and the way it goes downwind - that narrow but square cross section at the bow, the rocker and the flat but fairly narrow stern mean it planes/surfs down waves without broaching or death rolling and gives you the chance to stay in control going downwind in some quite interesting conditions.

    All the best,

    Ian


  14. #13
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    Make it lug. Easy to handle on any point of sail, spars will only be tiny on a storm sail, and it can use the same running gear as the regular main. Just unhook the big 'un and hook on the little 'un.
    You know you're making progress when there's sawdust in your coffee.

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