Put your hand up who gives credit were credit is due??

[NeilS]

I acknowledge Horace Leadbeatter, Bruce Leadbeatter's father as an inspiration. I grew up in the same town (Alstonville, NSW) as the Leadbeaters and I spent many hours in around Horries' workshop (in the old butter factory there) when I was a child, not that I ever called him anything else other than Mr Leadbeatter.

Horace developed various lathes in the 1940s, including one with gears, and his son Bruce followed on in that tradition inventing his own lathe, the Leady.

I turned my first item 55 years ago in Alstonville on a variation of Horace's treadle lathe design.

When it comes to form design, I acknowledge my influence from ceramic forms. I 'threw' pottery on the wheel for a number of years and also taught it. My teachers were Col Levy, Peter Rushforth and Carl McConnell. All three had either studied in Japan or were influenced by the Japanese ceramic tradition, as well as Bernard Leach and Shoji Hamada who were the most influential in introducing the Japanese ceramic aesthetic to the West. Japanese ceramic, along with my many years of drawing natural forms, are the major influences on my woodturned forms. So, I should also acknowledge nature.

I admire the simple eloquent forms of Robin Wood, the English pole turner, and the splendid multi-axis pieces of Brendan Stemp, but, as far as I know, none of my work imitates theirs. But should it, I gratefully acknowledge their influence and apologise if my execution has not done them justice

[clear out]

Niel,
Small world! my high school teacher in metalwork was Col Levy.
He had a kiln behind the workshop/classroom at Chatswood High back in the early 60s.
I was exposed to the McMeekin pottery whilst running the IA lab at UNSW.
I also worked with Bruce and then his son at what was Sydney teachers college then USyd.
Did you hear the one about the trainload of the Indian made Leadys that were shipped open to the elements and ended up full of rainwater!
I also worked at Ballina slipway and engineering in the 70s just down the road from Alstonville.
Richard Raffan took slides of stuff I did as a student at Canberra Fool of Farts the early 80s and used them in his lectures. Later worked with Gurgilo on the new big house for 88.
My main teacher then was Don Lee from the ACT then Mogo who flew under the radar and loved to play the dummy with the 'experts' and then haul em in for a laugh.
You meet a lot of people on your trip, Mike Hosaluk and Garry Knox Bennett I'll never forget for their generousity and inspiration.
H.

[NeilS]

Yes, Clear Out, it is a small and fascinating world we are lucky enough to journey through.

And, it is good to be reminded how privileged we have been here in Australia to have so many inspirational 'pioneers' in the various crafts to whom we need to give credit.

Neil

PS - I am very familiar with the location of the Ballina Slipway. It is also where some of my ancestors landed to make there way up to Duck Creek Mountain (as Alstonville was called then) where they selected portions of the rain forest (The Big Scrub) to clear for farming. I cringe to think of all the red cedar and other wonderful rainforest trees they felled to grow grass!

[Willy Nelson]

Gentlemen, if I may, I would like to add my 2 cents

I was largely self taught, in isolation for the first few years until I moved to WA and joined a club. I actually thought I was a reasonable turner, that is until I joined a club and saw other peoples work.

We had three professional turners in the club at the time Gordon Ward, Rob Jones and Jack De Vos.
The club offered courses and for years, I had admired the embellished platters of Rob Jones. I finally thought I had the skills to do a course and turn one of his platters. The course was excellent, Rob was an accomplished turner, instructor and a lovely fellow, for a pom.
My platter was taken to the club for show and tell and was mistakenly thought to one of Rob Jone's platters. I was very pleased to have my work recognised as Robs
Anyhoo, that was the only platter like it I have turned. It is a Rob Jones Platter.

What I did was use the skills he taught me, and hopefully the form I have learnt from others to develope my own styles, shapes and forms. I still regularly display this platter, but always state it is a Rob Jones platter.

Similarly, I regularly write for Australian Wood review, In my Bio, I gave credit to the wood workers who have influenced me the greatest, those being the former named turners plus others such as John Scarfe and Kevin Luff

I did a one course with Neil Scobie carving a leaf (went home that night physically and mentally exhausted) and displayed that at the club as a Neil Scobie inspired item. I will use these new found skills on my own shapes and bowls.

I think as a self proclaimed semi professional / hobbyist (itf there is such a thing) turner, that the works of other people are very obvious and when copied, I guess I think a little less of those people who have copied them and claim them as there own.
My thoughts, hope I haven't upset anyone
Cheers

Willy
jarrahland

[Mobyturns]

Gentlemen, if I may, I would like to add my 2 cents

I was largely self taught, in isolation for the first few years until I moved to WA and joined a club. I actually thought I was a reasonable turner, that is until I joined a club and saw other peoples work.

We had three professional turners in the club at the time Gordon Ward, Rob Jones and Jack De Vos.
The club offered courses and for years, I had admired the embellished platters of Rob Jones. I finally thought I had the skills to do a course and turn one of his platters. The course was excellent, Rob was an accomplished turner, instructor and a lovely fellow, for a pom.
My platter was taken to the club for show and tell and was mistakenly thought to one of Rob Jone's platters. I was very pleased to have my work recognised as Robs
Anyhoo, that was the only platter like it I have turned. It is a Rob Jones Platter.

What I did was use the skills he taught me, and hopefully the form I have learnt from others to develope my own styles, shapes and forms. I still regularly display this platter, but always state it is a Rob Jones platter.

Similarly, I regularly write for Australian Wood review, In my Bio, I gave credit to the wood workers who have influenced me the greatest, those being the former named turners plus others such as John Scarfe and Kevin Luff

I did a one course with Neil Scobie carving a leaf (went home that night physically and mentally exhausted) and displayed that at the club as a Neil Scobie inspired item. I will use these new found skills on my own shapes and bowls.

I think as a self proclaimed semi professional / hobbyist (itf there is such a thing) turner, that the works of other people are very obvious and when copied, I guess I think a little less of those people who have copied them and claim them as there own.
My thoughts, hope I haven't upset anyone
Cheers

Willy
jarrahland

Willy,

You have been most fortunate to have access to some of the best turners this country has. Can't complain about any course with Neil Scobie and to have had access to turners like Jack, & Gordon on a regular basis makes me jealous. I have thoroughly enjoyed attending a couple of Neil's classes in Innisfail FNQ and his demos at Turnfest along with Jacks there too. Gordon was a huge inspiration to me at Proserpine though I most likely will never do any of his highly embellished works but a little bit of his spirit lives on in most of us that were fortunate to enjoy his company.

That Kevin Luff character is a ratbag and tell him I said so. I would love to see him in action at the lathe as I never have seen him turn however I have enjoyed his company for many years at Turnfest.

I have to agree with you - all wood turners should get out of their sheds more often and go to events like DUTA, Proserpine, SATurn and the many others and to attend clubs more often. They will open your eyes to many styles of turning both good & not so perfect but will certainly widen your knowledge and range of skills.

Copying will always be there, we all learn design and makers skill by copying, but at some point in time you must make a range of work that is yours. What we must be mindful of though is that copying does not necessarily apply to techniques and styles and that many profiles or shapes are really public domain in that they are in common use and not unique. Certainly there are designs, styles and techniques that are very recognizable as a particular turners style and some of those may be very unique and original. There is nothing wrong with copying to learn but it is important to acknowledge those who have pioneered techniques or styles; have influenced us and it is most important to seek their permission when reproducing their designs. Morally and ethically it is very inappropriate to enter their designs into competitions or to sell reproductions of their designs.

[dogcatcher]

I know which forum and thread this discussion was started over, I a part of that discussion. First there were accusations being made that there was no credit given to the original artist. Even though nobody saw the application, it was only assumed that he did not give credit for the design. The turner had taken a class from the original designer, and entered his piece in a local show which was open to all kinds of woodworking from woodturning to furniture. A writer from AAW saw the results and reported them in the AW magazine.

This is getting ridiculous, with all of the accusations possible, some of the newer turners will become afraid to post anything. I think it will stifle creativity for them and even some of the more experienced turners. What are people supposed to do, question everything they turn as to who might have influenced the design they are doing???


If they don't want it copied, intentionally or by accident then keep the design private, they shouldn't inflate their egos by posting pics on every woodturning forum on the Internet. And they sure shouldn't be teaching their techniques to others.

[Mobyturns]

I know which forum and thread this discussion was started over, I a part of that discussion. First there were accusations being made that there was no credit given to the original artist. Even though nobody saw the application, it was only assumed that he did not give credit for the design. The turner had taken a class from the original designer, and entered his piece in a local show which was open to all kinds of woodworking from woodturning to furniture. A writer from AAW saw the results and reported them in the AW magazine.

This is getting ridiculous, with all of the accusations possible, some of the newer turners will become afraid to post anything. I think it will stifle creativity for them and even some of the more experienced turners. What are people supposed to do, question everything they turn as to who might have influenced the design they are doing???


If they don't want it copied, intentionally or by accident then keep the design private, they shouldn't inflate their egos by posting pics on every woodturning forum on the Internet. And they sure shouldn't be teaching their techniques to others.

Actually this discussion on the Woodwork Forums started back in October before the AAW magazine was published and before the discussion on the other forum commenced.

[Paul39]

I read this many years ago and found the exact quote via Google.

[Scott]

It seems to me that there are fingers being pointed here. If we're being asked to be honest and sincere with our work, wouldn't it be just as honourable to truthfully mention who the finger is being pointed at?

As NeilS so eloquently highlighted, inspiration comes from many sources. Mine have been Ken Wraight, Neil Turner and Brendan Stemp to name a few. NeilS, Vern and Hughie would have have to be up there too. I've also gleaned many isolated examples of work from here (Woodwork Forums) and the internet.

I haven't developed my own style as yet (I need to get back on the lathe anyway), however if and when I do I would be flattered if someone were to copy my ideas.

[smiife]

I haven't developed my own style as yet (I need to get back on the lathe anyway), however if and when I do I would be flattered if someone were to copy my ideas.

I would have to agree with scott..........not that I really
understand what this Is all about, I thought it was about
giving credit to fellow turners when you copied their work
reading between the lines there seems to be a lot more to it
maybe someone would like to explain to rest of us that are
obviously not in the know?

[Mobyturns]

I would have to agree with scott..........not that I really
understand what this Is all about, I thought it was about
giving credit to fellow turners when you copied their work
reading between the lines there seems to be a lot more to it
maybe someone would like to explain to rest of us that are
obviously not in the know?

I have no idea what prompted this particular WWF thread that was started in October.

When we start out we all learn from copying other turners work and normally there is no harm in this while we are learning and mostly credit is given to the original turner or turners for the inspiration. Problems start to arise when a turner’s skills mature and they start selling or entering competitions with almost identical copies of another’s designs. The topic of copying in wood turning is regularly raised often with quite public "outings" of a turner for copying another well known turner’s work.

Unfortunately at times some turners overstep the unwritten etiquette of wood turning (what ever that is) and the original artist and their supporters get upset about it. This is what has occurred in the US recently with the publication of photos in the AAW journal of prize winning group that were entered into a well known long running regional competition. A turner was accused of entering a group of almost identical copies of some quite unique designs all from the same turner. A quite robust discussion about the incident started on another forum. The whole discussion has since been pulled.

There are a few lessons to be learned from such incidents, firstly get permission to copy another’s work before selling or entering competitions, develop your own work, and make sure of all of your facts before accusing another of copying or plagiarism.

[smiife]

Hi mobyturns,
Thank you for the explaintion, now I kinda understand
I can understand how things can get out of hand, I recently
asked about lattice turning for example, I just assumed
that everone knows who did the orginal lattice stuff, and
i guess i am guilty of copyingbut i just wanted to know
how it, s done, and if i could do something similar, that
all came about from watching a u-tube video
Thanks again mobyturns

[Mobyturns]

Hi mobyturns,
Thank you for the explaintion, now I kinda understand
I can understand how things can get out of hand, I recently
asked about lattice turning for example, I just assumed
that everone knows who did the orginal lattice stuff, and
i guess i am guilty of copyingbut i just wanted to know
how it, s done, and if i could do something similar, that
all came about from watching a u-tube video
Thanks again mobyturns

Smiife,

I think you are OK with the lattice turnings for now, while you are researching and studying the technique. Have a look at Hans Wiesflogg’s & his son Jacob’s work as Hans is usually credited as inspiration for lattice turnings.

A long one but perhaps worthwhile

What we must understand about copying is that the laws of copyright apply in most jurisdictions through international treaty and in some instances registered designs may also exist over a wood turned or manufactured item etc. Registered designs are rare in wood turning or for one off or limited production runs but they are common for mass produced items that may inspire a wood turner i.e. a profile etc.

Hans Bolling’s wood turned ducks & figures (Oscar the dog, Strit, Mermaid etc) which were first made in the 1950’s and many other Danish wood turned items were and perhaps still are protected by registered designs and certainly by copyright but many wood turners make variants of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG3iEJqWG1k

As soon as an item is created or takes material form i.e. a sketch or physical form as opposed to an idea, copyright automatically applies to that item and anyone wishing to create reproductions of it - either another hand made item (copy), scans, images & photographs etc. - must either seek permission to use it or comply with the limited fair dealings provisions of copyright law.

Copyright applies to paintings, drawings, cartoons, sculpture, craft work, architectural plans, buildings, photographs, maps and plans. Copyright does not cover titles, names, ideas or techniques although some form of intellectual property protection may apply (patents, trade marks etc) and again that is not common in wood turning due to the prohibitive costs.

The fair dealing exemptions apply to research or study so you can make near identical copies of another’s lattice turnings but only for the purpose of research or study. Problems start to arise as an infringement of copyright when those near identical copies are published, are entered into competitions or are sold.

Now if you make a derivative item using those techniques and ideas there is no infringement. “In copyright terms, it’s not hard for something to be original: it means that the work isn’t a mere copy, a requisite level of skill and effort has been exercised in its creation.” This is why many demonstrators say I have shown you the techniques now go and make it your own – meaning please don’t just copy mine!

Acknowledgement does not excuse or lessen a copying infringement nor does not making a profit make it fair. You must seek permission to copy another's work once you are outside the fair dealings exemptions. The test the courts apply as to whether “a dealing is fair or not is to be judged by the criterion of a fair minded and honest person”. If fair minded persons (not experts) see them as a copy then the courts tend to rule that they are a copy.

Copyright law only provides an avenue to protect literary & artistic works, to establish exclusive rights for the creator, and mechanisms for the owner to protect and assert those rights. The owner must assert those rights when another infringes their copyright. Asserting those rights can be expensive so many artists choose the public "outing" of another who has allegedly infringed their "exclusive rights". They may not be entitled to claim they have an exclusive right as their work may not be as original as they think it is.

Quotes are sourced from http://www.copyright.org.au/find-an-...browse-by-a-z/ which is good reading for any craftsman getting more serious about their craft / art.

[Scott]

Hmm, so if I turned something round I'm infringing on everyone's copyright? With lattice turning, who should give credit to whom, Hans Weisflog or Ken Wraight?

I don't see anything wrong with trying different techniques and developing your own style.

As I've hinted, I think this post was started to have a go at someone. What's weak about nz_carver's initial post it that he didn't have the fortitude to name whoever he was having a whinge about.

[Christos]

.....

As I've hinted, I think this post was started to have a go at someone. What's weak about nz_carver's initial post it that he didn't have the fortitude to name whoever he was having a whinge about.

Let's ensure that we understand something here. This paragraph has been copied from the forum rules.

If you intend to denigrate a business or person on these forums please think long and hard before doing it. You might also like to check with your lawyer and your accountant to see if you have enough money to fight the law suit that may ensue.

The full text can be read by this link, Forum Rules

Weather it was or was not his intention is irrelevant because the thread is what it is. No finger pointing or ousting.

Thank you