Put your hand up who gives credit were credit is due??

[nz_carver]

Not been posting but watching on here on Facebook YouTube and other woodturning events.

It seems that there are a lot of people that use other people's idears with out giveing credit or a heads up were they got there idear or were or who they had seen it from.

The woodturning world and the big players in it is not as big as one may think and sometimes it's to clear if the idear a person is useing is not these.

There are a number of turners who if you watch them you can see by the things the do and the way they turn its can be clear to see who there teacher was.

There is a saying
you need to know we're you have been to know were your going.

Its not that hard to say I picked this tip up from.

So who here gives credit?

[george mavridis]

You make a valid argument but sometimes you just forget where you got it from or use a combination of ideas and/or techniques.

[fubar]

Nope cash upfront or on delivery

[wheelinround]

Always to try to if possible.

Its a shame that the ones at the top do not often do the same thing all to often I have heard it said "I am self taught" ............nor do they when stealing lesser known peoples ideas and style tho.


Edited to add further comment.

Its sort of hard I guess to give credit to all - as turning has been around for so long and ideas have come from so far back in history, design elements, styles, demands of customers, demands of craftsmen.
As to turning methods this also stems from periods in history as much as what works for one person doesn't work for another as we have often seen here on the forum and elsewhere.
What one turner uses a single tool to perform a cut another may have a variety of tools to do the same job.

My first lessons in turning were seeing spindles turned by a pro for a high chair dad made i had to sand them they were so damn rough cut I still recall the hours sanding at age 7. My next lesson was in high school Mr Woods who as a tradesman woodworker (he spread across many wood trades) teaching me through years 7 to 10 still hold strong he gave time and knowledge to those willing to learn as well as allow to put in their own ideas.

[Woodturnerjosh]

You do see it quite a bit and it's one thing to try and emulate the design of one of the major players or innovators as a technical exercise, and another thing entirely to pass it off as your own.
Those of us that have been interested in the "wood art" genre for a while can probably pick up the copies and I have no problem when someone does it as an exercise and is upfront about the source of their idea but when they try and pass it off as their original thought, I find that disrespectful.
When you've completed something based on someone else's work and you can't remember who, I think you should say that when you post it online.

[BobL]

Lack of credit recognition for worthy ideas is sadly just one aspect of the general way things seem to have gone in the last decade or so.
I think there was more acknowledgment of sources back when I first joined the forum some 8 years ago.
Despite concerted efforts by some the same thing happens at schools and other educational institutions.
These days good ideas don't seem to be worth much, as everything seems to rotate around clever marketing, conniving lawyers, and bulk flogging of crap to the unsuspecting public.

Interestingly Daniel Pink thinks that the next "economic" revolution will be one that involves "good ideas", as everything routine in the service, technical and creative sense will be outsourced to computers or the third world.

But unless good ideas are easily legally protected and rewarded, nothing will change.

[pommyphil]

Standing on the shoulders of giants !

The craft has been evolving for millennia (spelling ?) Many gifted turners contributed to our tools and designs, do we need a full list with everything ?

Phil

[Paul39]

I came to wood turning the hard way through the back door. I have never had any instruction and did not read about or go to any demonstrations for the first 6 months or so.

I had a 7 X 12 inch Chinese metal lathe and a sharpened screw driver and bench chisel to start.

I managed to make a few things and got hooked.

I experiment with many tools and techniques and find things that work and things that don't.

Many times I work out something by trial and error and then read about the exact same thing here or in a book by a Famous Turner.

It tickles me to see something I have worked out by myself in a book by Richard Raffan.

Rather than copying, sometimes great minds run in the same ditch.

Who was the first person to make a natural edge bowl? To use a gouge rather than a scraper to make a bowl? Peter Child, in the UK, I think. Maybe others, in other places, at about the same time.

All of my early bowls were shaped curving up to the rim, with the edge a bit smaller than the outside diameter. I saw a bowl somewhere where the top flared out rather than in. So I made a few like that. Is that a copy that I should credit to someone? Who made the first bowl that flared out to the rim?

Rude Osolnik found a pile of birch plywood cabinet doors discarded at Berea College, he went home and got his truck and filled it. He glued them up and made all sorts of things. Some day I will glue up plywood and do the same thing. I would not call what I will make copies, because the shape I make will come about while I am turning.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Osol...A&ved=0CB0QsAQ

I will agree that someone who gets a photograph of a segmented bowl and carefully measures and makes the segments from the same timber, in the same pattern, with the same shape is a copy, and should be credited. Why would one bother.

[Woodturnerjosh]

I can't speak for others but my comment was not meant to relate to bowl shapes or materials. It is highly unlikely that someone will turn a bowl or vessel in a shape that hasn't already been done in the last few thousand years. You can sort of say the same about materials but it's not quite the same

But when it comes to embellishment and surface treatment some consideration and respect to your source of inspiration should be given (only in the case of blatant copies)
In recent times I've seen work that was obviously copied off Jack De Vos, Binh Pho and Jacques Vesery with no credit given. Now don't get me wrong, I think copying techniques and ideas of other artists is a great way to add more skills to your repertoire but you have to use those things in your own way if you're presenting them as your original work. Just to clarify what I'm referring to in the case of the work inspired by Binh Pho, the copy used the overall shape, style of carving, airbrushing, timber appearance and even the dragonfly motifs that were present in a lot (if not all) of Binh's work at the time.

I'm sorry if my point isn't getting across properly as this is not the easiest thing to clarify (and it's even harder when I'm typing one handed with my dominant hand in plaster... long story )

Cheers
Josh

[Paul39]

Josh,

After reading the below, it is a rant going off on a tangent, but I think explains a bit of why a student will copy or produce work like the master.

Out of curiosity I Googled Binh Pho images and had a look and then Binh Pho copies. One which came up was this lady from UK who had studied with Binh Pho, made pieces in collaboration with him and then continued on her own.

See: http://www.joeyrichardson.com/newpag...borations.html

So her stuff is likely to resemble Binh Pho's

I'm a retired commercial photographer so I am somewhat familiar with art photography.

The route to Famous Photographer, fame and big money seems to be: study at Famous Art School under Famous Art Photographers, Take photos and go to Workshops taught by Famous Photographers at exotic locations. Exhibit widely everywhere you can, restaurants, banks, art shows, local galleries, teach workshops, exhibit at higher priced galleries until you are accepted at Famous Expensive Galleries in NY & Los Angeles. You are now a Famous Photographer and will likely die broke and owing money.

Along the way Nikon, or Canon, or Epson may give you some money if you appear in ads using their product.

25 years after you die you will be discovered and your original prints will sell for thousands of dollars and the gallery will prosper.

You may fill in artist, turner, cabinet maker, instrument maker, etc. after Famous above.

Is a bowl made by me worth more because I have studied under Ricard Raffan, turned on a Vicmarc lathe, using a Sorby Cryo tool, sharpened on a Tormek grinder? I don't think so. My bowl should be judged on its own merits.

[Woodturnerjosh]

Her work was not the work I was referring to (it was some random thing on a forum) and having a degree in visual art with many friends being artists I'm aware of the way the system works.

Another way of putting is that if you copy someones work (I don't mean one element, I mean copy) and someone compliments you on the design, originality, etc, then a good person should say "I got this idea, or copied this from X"

Unfortunately the larger art world is full of people that take the credit for other peoples work and ideas (like Jeff Koons) and that is just the way the business works. When I got into the whole woodturning/wood art scene it was not like that.

I get the feeling we are talking about the subject from different points and it is therefore unlikely we will agree.

[nz_carver]

I'll clear it up a little more

There is a number of turners who post in here or on Facebook or YouTube
who uses other people's idears to a point were it's clear to see.

Some make a living some do it as a hobby.
It gets me when I see the ones who do it for a living useing other people's idears and not given credit to the person who's idear it was.

if you made a living and somone copyed your idear and didn't give you credit it may be safe to say that you might not be to happy???

Maybe be I have had dealing with what I call Gentlemen woodturners who will stop and say
this is my idear but I got it off.

[Mobyturns]

Yes I do where it is warranted. In some instances it becomes impossible to determine who originated an idea, technique or style - wood turned hats comes to mind.

This topic always generates considerable discussion and often for the wrong reasons. In the American Association of Woodturner's journal Jerry Bennett had an excellent article on copying etc - "It Is Mine, Mine, Mine!" Vol 28 No. 2 pages 35–41, well worth reading.

It is considered polite and the moral thing to do to acknowledge the inspiration for a work and one should do so however there must be something unique or original about the prior artist’s work/s and or style to warrant such acknowledgement. The whole argument about copying & acknowledgement becomes bogged down in legal issues such as copyright, moral rights, trade marks, patents etc.

Ideas, concepts and techniques can not be protected by copyright but can be protected at significant cost through other legal means and not all copying infringes another's rights. Jerry points out "the issue can become a bit more complicated if we think of our work as unique or original, when it actually is not." It also becomes complicated when we start to acknowledge derivative works - a work that uses another's work, style, or technique and takes it further than the prior artist or in another direction. In wood turning there is little that is not derived from past works or artists however there are unique designs or embellishments applied to forms that make them very unique & original and able to be protected by copyright.

We all start out learning by copying then progress to derivative works and perhaps to original work or styles of our own. The example of Binh Pho & Joey Richardson is a good one as Joey studied with Binh. Both weave a story into their work which makes each of their works quite unique and differentiates their work even though the techniques may be substantially the same and Joey’s work is considered a derivative of Binh’s work.

I have posted images of my linear laminated designs for small bowls, spin tops and goblets (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/nz-symposium-ig-entry-189232) which have been inspired by quite a few artists particularly Jim McPhail, Eli Avisera and Jack Cox however neither have produced the same patterns for the base blanks to my knowledge. I have deliberately stayed away from their’s and others patterns and designs so I believe I am producing a derivative work that uses common construction techniques that are not unique to either artist, nor am I copying another’s design. The forms and elements of my designs however are not unique, but in combination become my recognized style sufficiently so to be recognized in the AAW journal Vol 27 No.4 page 27 where I acknowledge several inspirations including club turner Jack Wooderson who originally sparked my imagination with his work.

Then there are many blatant examples of copying where the intent is to copy and to sell and even against an artists original work/s in their established markets. Hard to stop and copyright is no protection unless you are prepared to defend it. Google "Dale Chihuly copyright infringement" for an example of such (alleged) infringement.

[chuck1]

Who was the first person to turn a bead and a hollow with fillets in between them? Makes it hard to say where the idea came from?! Sometimes!
With most balusters I have to copy, some are so old who knows who turned and designed it.
I give credit to my Tafe Teacher George Hatfield for the skills and knowledge that was taught to me, and I guess alot of my turning leans towards period turnings. So alot of credits go to 16th 17th 18th century turners!

[Christos]

From my perspective I make things because I have a desire to do so. This desire does not always have a creative side that can be matched. So the inspiration of making something has to come from somewhere.

At least two things come to mind straight away and both from this forum. After making each of them I posted the link to the original that had inspired me. The items that I eventually created were a little different to the ones that had taken my fancy but it was these items that got me off my backside to get to creating. And by me posting serves two purposes the one that had already been mention, giving credit and the second one to inspire someone else.

I think it would be a very boring world if ideas are not shared.