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  1. #1
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    Default Mutant goat idea.

    Question for His Mikness and others: what do you think of the idea of doing an alternative Goat layout that basically mimics the way a Finn is built? IOW, full length side decks at sheer height, with buoyancy under them, and no other tanks.

    My thinking is that a/ this works really well on Finns and b/ it is stiff and strong and c/ it enables excellent capsize recovery for performance sailing and d/ it makes hiking out very comfortable for any number of crew.

    Although some people will prefer the "traditional" layout, others might prefer something like this. TBH one of the things I have always thought when looking at the Goat is that it looks like "gunnel bum" waiting to happen. Anyone who has done long periods of hiking has probably learned to dread "gunnel bum". Offhand, I'm guessing that the more "performance sailing oriented" layout could be done at close to the same weight and labour as the "traditional" layout.

    Thoughts?
    You know you're making progress when there's sawdust in your coffee.

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    'Delaide, Australia
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    Default

    There are two ways of looking at buoyancy distribution. And there are no easy answers.

    One is fore and aft tanks. The boat will lie on its side quite low allowing a lot of the yard and mast to be in the water at a shallow angle, preventing the boat from turtling. When the boat is brought upright it will have substantial water in it, but this means the freeboard is reduced for easier reboarding. You can press the gunwale just about down to waterlevel before rolling in. The boat is not particularly stable after the capsize, but keeping aft near the widest tank means you can recover.

    Side tanks - boat floats high on its side with the mast and yard at a steep angle so the hull is at the point where the CG of the hull is starting to push the mast under to turtle. Anyone who has sailed 420s and 470s knows that you have to be really fast to get on the centreboard to prevent a turtle. The centreboard is quite high and may be hard for some to reach. The boat comes up with little water which means it is light and has high freeboard making remounts difficult from the height (goat is very high sided) and the angle the boat rolls to when you put your weight on the gunwale.. Boat has nice stability after capsize for bailing out.

    It is all swings and roundabouts.

    My tendency now for experimenters is to do what Ian did in NZ. he moved the front of the mid seat forward and changed the cutout of BHD#3 so that a box could be built under each end of the mid seat. Maybe a foot wide measured on the floor. this means about 120lbs per side. Keeping the mid part of the seat open for heavy stuff.

    YOu get the better stability from tanks well out either side after capsize. It jacks the boat up a bit higher when it is on its side, but shouldn't affect centreboard reach, drifting away from catching wind and probably less bailing.

    That is my preferred position for experimentation for now.

    MIK

  4. #3
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    Yes I am aware of the trade-offs. Too much bouyancy along the sheer can be problematic. I was mainly thinking of how to make hiking more comfortable, without complicating construction or increasing weight, and with better capsize recovery thrown in.
    You know you're making progress when there's sawdust in your coffee.

  5. #4
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    Default

    Howdy,

    I was really summarising for other readers.

    I do think the high sidedness of the goat is the single biggest problem as well as its lightness. if has side tanks to be free of water after capsize I think it will be very hard to get into. The idea of boxing in the ends only of mid seat and extending it a bit forward would push in the direction you want to go without (what I perceive as) the risk of going all the way.

    MIK

  6. #5
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    I have not found "gunnel bum" to be a problem in practice. The sheer structure is wide enough, and my butt is padded well enough, that I haven't gotten sore.

    Those of a thinner build might have more of an issue. I've seen Christophe (at least as tall as I am but maybe 2/3 the body weight) wear padded racing shorts. I doubt I would ever need them, personally.

  7. #6
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    Aug 2014
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    NJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulie View Post
    I have not found "gunnel bum" to be a problem in practice. The sheer structure is wide enough, and my butt is padded well enough, that I haven't gotten sore.

    Those of a thinner build might have more of an issue. I've seen Christophe (at least as tall as I am but maybe 2/3 the body weight) wear padded racing shorts. I doubt I would ever need them, personally.
    Shhhh, don't tell Mik, but I'm contemplating adding about 1/2" to the gunwales to make them a bit wider. The small weight penalty will be well spent for me. At 6'2", 235#, "gunnel bum" is a real issue.

    Along the idea, but not as pronounced, as Ben Fuller's Harrier, Ran Tan:


  8. #7
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    Something about 6" wide is nice if you're spending any real time hiking. Anything much less starts to feel like your thighs are being sawn off from the back after a while, IMO.
    You know you're making progress when there's sawdust in your coffee.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumbloak View Post
    Something about 6" wide is nice if you're spending any real time hiking. Anything much less starts to feel like your thighs are being sawn off from the back after a while, IMO.
    The good thing about being 235# is that it has to get blowing pretty good to require me to hop out there!

    And since I won't be racing anyone, I'll be reefing off long before I'd have to spend much time on the rail.

  10. #9
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    I'm more like 150 when I'm in shape. Bit heavier than that at the moment (effin middle age spread and all).
    You know you're making progress when there's sawdust in your coffee.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Cohen View Post
    Shhhh, don't tell Mik, but I'm contemplating adding about 1/2" to the gunwales to make them a bit wider.
    I feel like there is a Goat out there that took this approach. The builder added an additional lamination to the gunwale. That does add some mass though. Not much, to be sure, but if you're into the whole light-as-a-feather thing...

    How about making the spacers a bit wider, putting the inwales inboard an inch or so? Wider spacers also add mass, but since they are a) half or less the amount of total material as the gunn'ls and, b) spec'd to be lightweight lumber, the impact is minimized. Hollow out those spacer and you can get back to feathery lightness while still relieving bum stress.
    Dave
    StorerBoat Builder, Sailor, Enthusiast
    Dave's GIS Chronicles | Dave's Lugs'l Chronicles | Dave's StorerBoat Forum Thread

  12. #11
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    Per our conversation in the other thread, that boat of Fuller's, above, is a perfect example of what most Woodenboat editors think is "proper" small boat construction and weight. (Ironically, Fuller himself totally understands light construction and loves the GIS.) It's hard to believe that anyone would ever have to hike out in something that heavy, or that it would make any difference if they did.

  13. #12
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    Yeah I'm constantly amazed by how heavy a lot of the overseas boats seem to be, even when building methods that are capable of light weight. They seem to be built like tanks, which IMO just makes them harder to handle on land, and more expensive to build.


    How about making the spacers a bit wider, putting the inwales inboard an inch or so? Wider spacers also add mass, but since they are a) half or less the amount of total material as the gunn'ls and, b) spec'd to be lightweight lumber, the impact is minimized. Hollow out those spacer and you can get back to feathery lightness while still relieving bum stress.
    Y'know, turning the inwales into lightweight box beams would certainly do the trick. 3mm or 4mm top and bottom, with spacers that could be half the section of the standard ones. If done carefully you could probably get it 125 or so wide without any increase in weight, and hardly any increase in labour.
    You know you're making progress when there's sawdust in your coffee.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulie View Post
    Per our conversation in the other thread, that boat of Fuller's, above, is a perfect example of what most Woodenboat editors think is "proper" small boat construction and weight. (Ironically, Fuller himself totally understands light construction and loves the GIS.) It's hard to believe that anyone would ever have to hike out in something that heavy, or that it would make any difference if they did.
    My 18' Lockley-Newport's hull weighed about 700# including a 150# steel CB. But when the wind was up, I was hiked out big time. I buried the rail in that boat every chance I could.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by davlafont View Post
    I feel like there is a Goat out there that took this approach. The builder added an additional lamination to the gunwale. That does add some mass though. Not much, to be sure, but if you're into the whole light-as-a-feather thing...

    How about making the spacers a bit wider, putting the inwales inboard an inch or so? Wider spacers also add mass, but since they are a) half or less the amount of total material as the gunn'ls and, b) spec'd to be lightweight lumber, the impact is minimized. Hollow out those spacer and you can get back to feathery lightness while still relieving bum stress.
    Once I sink my teeth into the build, I'll be mulling over any and all possibilities.

    Saving weight is more a building challenge to me than a difference maker on performance.

    I learned that lesson with cycling; when I'm 225#, it really doesn't matter whether the bike is 16# or 20. 16# bikes cost $4000. I have wonderful lugged-frame steel bikes that I built for a few hundred.

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumbloak View Post
    Yeah I'm constantly amazed by how heavy a lot of the overseas boats seem to be, even when building methods that are capable of light weight. They seem to be built like tanks, which IMO just makes them harder to handle on land, and more expensive to build.
    I was stunned to read that Vivier's Ilur, at 14.5' weighs in at 225kg...KG!!! What the heck is in that hull that weighs 500#?

    http://www.vivierboats.com/html/stock_sail_and_oar.html

    But it carries 120sqft of sail for a small boat.

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