Coding for a CNC Machine

[Chris Parks]

Having zero knowledge of CNC I need to ask some questions. Please keep in mind this will be a commercial venture strting with about two thousand units and they will be in Aluminium

What I need to know is who does the coding for the machine? I will have a working prototype with no drawings so do I have to get someone to code it or does the machine shop do the coding?

If I changed machine shops is the coding mine?

Do all machines work to a standard coding?

Can I take the coding from one machine and use it on another machine?

Thanks

[wheelinround]

CNC what exactly Chris?

[Kiwi75]

I know very little about CNC machines, but I worked at a kitchen manufacturer a few months ago that had one and from what I understand there is a Computer program that comes with the machine and you have to write a program for each project or job. Hope that helps.

[Chris Parks]

CNC what exactly Chris?

I don't understand the question Ray. It is a prototype to be manufactured in aluminium, beyond that I need more questions.

[elanjacobs]

Raw CNC coding is standard, but each manufacturer will have their own software suite to get you there. Most modern machines come with software that will allow you to simply import a CAD drawing of the part and the actual coding is done for you, so if you have a CAD file of it there's no problem converting it to work on any machine. If you need them to draw it up for you, you'd need to negotiate with them as to who owns it.

[malb]

Hi Chris,
I have a good understanding of commercial CNC Routers, which could possibly be of use if your product was totally formed of sheet under about 2mm thickness. Alternative machines readily available that might be more appropriate to the job you envision include CNC versions of lathes (turned or threaded components), mills (thicker sheets, finishing castings, drilling and internal threading, or carving out of solid stock), guillotines (cutting sheet/plate to break down sheet/roll stock to intermediate raw stock), presses (punch out holes to required size and shape), benders (form intermediate stock into finished shapes), waterjets and lasers (cut complex shapes from sheet, plate or tube stock). There are probably a few other variations that I have not mentioned.

Some of the odd responses you have had to date are because you haven't been particularly forthcoming about the product or type of machining you want to do, so we cannot guess which type of machine would be the way to go for the job, or assume that by CNC you mean routing because that's what woodies are familiar with.

Elan's response is basically correct, there is a standard core of coding that is common to most machines, and generally a range of extensions to that for the particular type of machine being used. Then different controller manufacturers implement the extensions in different ways as well. The code is also very dependant on the number of tool stations available on particular machines, and the actual tool loaded at each station. Therefore there is probably little chance of code developed for Elan's employers CNC router producing the same product on the machine I used to operate, although they are a located a few streets apart, and are essentially similar but differ in detail.

For stuff that is essentially 2.5D, (requires a particular tool to engage to a stated depth at a specific location and/or travel from point to point while engaged), it is generally fairly easy for the production staff to import a CAD drawing of the part and have the software develop an appropriate code for their machine. If the component is small compared to the raw sheet size, it is also easy to copy and paste to create multiple components from a raw sheet in a single run. However once it comes to fully 3D machines like lathes and mills, the coding becomes more complex and machine/tool dependant. In some instances, coding may be achieved by automatic conversion from a CAD file, but in others the code may need to be developed manually and tested.

The question of code ownership definitely needs to be negotiated. On one hand the code may not be readily portable from contract machinist to contract machinist, and hence production transfer to an alternative contractor would probably at least require massaging the code to conform to the different machinery. On the other hand, you may not want a backup of a file being used to create a cheaper rival product after changing production facilities.

Hope this helps you .

[Chris Parks]

I apologise if I have seemingly been less than forthcoming it is just that I don't know what is needed in the first place myself.

Firstly, it will be out of solid Aluminium and done by a mill type CNC for the most part with one small part being done on a lathe. I have only made the concept out of MDF and I am waiting for the metal prototype to be finished so we can test and make any modifications.

Some years ago I came up with a new caster/camber device for race (go) karts which was a world first in concept and had a patent on it which was my first mistake. Never patent anything unless you have a bucket full of money to go to court with. Patents are for companies that have the resources to protect them and not for the common man. We brought a company in to market it world wide and that was the second mistake, they took one look at it and decided that if the design was changed enough it got around the patent and I was no longer needed. I then retired from the field hurt and totally off and left it at that. The product is now a world wide success and I got nothing except a big bill for a useless patent.

Recently I have come up with a better idea which is going to blow that product into the weeds because of several factors I don't want to go into. I think they know I am coming back at them as I have never made a secret of it but they cannot even begin to envisage what they are going to face. This time I am going to market it myself using the internet and keep everyone else out of it. I suspect it will be made in China as I have the contacts there now which I did not have previously and I will get the parts made in two different places so the Chinese haven't a clue what they are making.

My dilemma has been getting the product out of the machine so to speak and I did not know what the next step was in the process.

Are CAD drawings necessary?

Or can that be step be missed and the CNC coding done directly from the prototype

Do I get the coding done in Australia

There is a dilemma that any inventor has to face, as soon as you show the idea to anyone you run a risk of losing control of the product as happened to me and an NDA will not stop that. This time I have to do all the leg work myself while keeping the design protected until it reaches the market place. Then it is up to me to market it in such a way as to not make it worthwhile for anyone to compete but that part is easy using the internet. My questions to this forum are the first steps in gaining the knowledge to begin to understand what needs to be done to make the device and any help I can get will be appreciated. If anyone here can help me gain a better understanding I am sure we can come to an arrangement to make it worth your while.

Thanks.

[maggs]

At some point you are probably going to need a CAD drawing file so the machine code, usually gcode, can be created by a CAM software package. The CAM software is the one where you load the CAD drawing then assign tools and create tool paths to complete the job on a particular machine. The output file is usually gcode but, as already mentioned there are other formats. This is why supplying the manufacturer with the CAD file is usual practise and then they use their own CAM package to create the machine code for their machines. The most universally accepted CAD file is dxf format. Alternatively you could supply a prototype for the manufacturer to create the drawing and the code.A good friend of mine recently did much the same as you intend doing and got screwed over by the Chinese manufacturer and the USA distributor. The way I see things, you can only break up the product into several components and have them made by different manufacturers. Even doing this will not stop them copying the final product once you bring it to market.Like you said, this patent/copyright system is for big players and costs big dollars to register and enforce. You may want to consider selling the idea to a big distributor/manufacturer instead of doing it yourself. You won't make as much but, you won't have the heartache either when it gets copied. Even big guns like Apple can't stop the Chinese copying their goods.I have been trying to deal with a copyright issue over the last 4 years against someone in the USA. To enforce it, it is going to cost more than 100K to get the lawyers started off then who knows how much ongoing. I will never recover the loss as the offender has all their assets in someone else's name. The stress of it all has already caused me a heart attack and other medical issues so I know how this type of thing can affect you. I lost almost 10 years of my work in a split second and will likely never get anything back for it.Think carefully before you hand over the "keys to the kingdom" to a third party. There's no going back afterwards.steve

[wheelinround]

Ah after reading more Chris I understand. i was hoping you were heading into CNC as marketing that machine as the others have said and I am only one who would love to head down the road of CNC you know the rest.
I see many have replied and they have set you straight.

Believe me I know a few others who developed things and lost big time as you did GO for it hit the mongrels hard

[Chris Parks]

At some point you are probably going to need a CAD drawing file so the machine code, usually gcode, can be created by a CAM software package. The CAM software is the one where you load the CAD drawing then assign tools and create tool paths to complete the job on a particular machine. The output file is usually gcode but, as already mentioned there are other formats. This is why supplying the manufacturer with the CAD file is usual practise and then they use their own CAM package to create the machine code for their machines. The most universally accepted CAD file is dxf format. Alternatively you could supply a prototype for the manufacturer to create the drawing and the code.A good friend of mine recently did much the same as you intend doing and got screwed over by the Chinese manufacturer and the USA distributor. The way I see things, you can only break up the product into several components and have them made by different manufacturers. Even doing this will not stop them copying the final product once you bring it to market.Like you said, this patent/copyright system is for big players and costs big dollars to register and enforce. You may want to consider selling the idea to a big distributor/manufacturer instead of doing it yourself. You won't make as much but, you won't have the heartache either when it gets copied. Even big guns like Apple can't stop the Chinese copying their goods.I have been trying to deal with a copyright issue over the last 4 years against someone in the USA. To enforce it, it is going to cost more than 100K to get the lawyers started off then who knows how much ongoing. I will never recover the loss as the offender has all their assets in someone else's name. The stress of it all has already caused me a heart attack and other medical issues so I know how this type of thing can affect you. I lost almost 10 years of my work in a split second and will likely never get anything back for it.Think carefully before you hand over the "keys to the kingdom" to a third party. There's no going back afterwards.steve

Thanks Maggs, that clears the fog a bit. I have no issues with them copying it, I would be naive to think they would not. Unlike you I took a pragmatic decision to walk away and swallow what happened.

[simso]

If someone gives me a hand drawing or a proto-type and I have to turn that into a cad drawing and I am not paid for doing the cad drawing then the cad drawing is mine to own and do with accordingly. I do this reguarly with guitar bodies.

If someone pays me to turn there design into a cad drawing then they own the drawing and all versions derived from that drawing there of.

If you are going to contract someone to do the machining of your item, then you need to provide a cad drawing of the item or pay them to draw it up in there software, usually some form of cad.

Once a person / shop / has the cad drawing they create toolpaths (code) for there specific machine to manufacture the part from

If you are concerned re the copying of your product, an easier way is to farm the manufacture of different parts to different business's, do not get one to do the whole job.

At some time if its a good product, it will get cloned and copied from china, that is inevitable with the laws they manufacture and are governed by

The process

1- Draw item up in cad

2 - Create toolpaths to suit a specific cnc machine

3 - Machine part


Steve

[TomZL]

First up, I work in manufacturing as a Research and Design Mechanical Engineer. Sounds like you need some guidance on how to get a part to manufacture. Here are my 2c.

If you're looking to produce something with a view to get it manufactured (from a fabrication machine shop in Australia, China, or where ever it may be), the usual process is:

1. Model the part (or assembly) in 3D CAD.
2. When you are happy with the CAD (it's been sufficiently reviewed/simulated/design checked), you produce a detailed dimension drawing. The drawing has all the Geometric dimensions and tolerances ( commonly referred to as GD&T) and will follow an engineering standard such as AS1100 (Australia) or ASME Y14.5, etc..
3. You send the following CAD in a industry standard file format (typically STEP or IGES for 3D models, DXF for flat patterns) and also a copy of the detailed drawing out for quotation.
4. Purchase samples.
5. Wait for and received samples. Then check it satisfies your requirements. At this stage you would also do product testing on these samples (For certification, shock, vibration, package testing etc).
6. Re-iterate step 1-5 if there needs to be design changes.
7. Go to production.

The above process is completely watered down. It in no way involves ANY CNC programming, toolpath generation or transfer of G-code between manufacturers - that is all done in-house with the shops. I would completely recommend seeking advice from an Mechanical or Manufacturing Engineer if you are serious about commericalising your product to market from a technical perspective.

[Dengue]

will not stop them copying the final product once you bring it to market

This was my first thought on reading your post, Chris.

There is some pretty sound advice given above, and it makes you wonder why you would bother with all this hard work developing the product only to have any monetary rewards effectively stolen from you. Do you really want to go down this path?

[Chris Parks]

This was my first thought on reading your post, Chris.

There is some pretty sound advice given above, and it makes you wonder why you would bother with all this hard work developing the product only to have any monetary rewards effectively stolen from you. Do you really want to go down this path?

I don't think that is a problem in my case for reasons I don't want to go into here apart from saying supply chains build costs. I have done this sort of stuff before and have always taken the view of making sure the business case is sound before anything else is done. Clearvue was a good example, keep the costs down and the market exists. I had to fight long and hard to make CV a retail proposition in this country and some very well known industry experts told me I didn't know what I was doing as it was too cheap and I could be making more money if I allowed them to re-sell the product.

[NCArcher]

Most intriguing and mysterious Chris.
I've sent you a PM