New "old" plane

[ivanavitch]

Hi guys
I picked up a sweetheart No 2 on US eBay. It got delivered this afternoon. The seller pointed out that there was a piece missing from the knob. I intended to turn another (after watching Ianw turn one for a Stanley 10 1/2). I was also aware that there was not all that much left on the sweetheart cutter.
I cleaned up the sole and cheeks this afternoon, reground and sharpened the cutter then cleaned up the brass.
I then selected my best piece of oldus rafterus from the wood pile and turned a new knob. I find that the plane it is quite comfortable in the hand because I normally only put 3 fingers on the handle with my index running down the side of the plane. If anything, the horn possibly sticks in to the web between thumb and index finger.
Now to questions
1. The original handle has a partial decal. Is it recommended to put these away to preserve the decal? That would drive me to make a new handle with relief for the web of my hand.
2. The hardwood knob is just a stand in until I can source either some rosewood or another knob. A number 3 knob appears to be the same size. Are they?
3. If I was to turn a knob in rosewood, is New Guinea rosewood a reasonable substitute for the original Brazilian?

Regards
John

[ivanavitch]

The sweetheart cutters seem to be hard (expensive) to come by. Would people recommend putting the sweetheart away and sourcing a later (cheaper) cutter to use?

[derekcohen]

Hi John

Congrats on your #2.

Realise that these are Collector planes, regardless of their condition (within reason), and are not for general use. If you really want to use a plane this small, consider either a block plane or a (non vintage) LN #2.

You would best be searching out an old, correct knob for the plane (on eBay), rather than turning your own. Even a careful repair of the regional would be better than an incorrect, but "perfect" facsimilie. Save the handle with decal. That is valuable. Save the blade you have, if it is regional, and see if you can source another of fuller length. It is not for use.

I hope that "cleaned up the sole and cheeks" did not involve more than a scrub to remove the tarnish and grime. This plane belongs on a shelf with all the original patina (ageing).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[IanW]

Hmmm, Derek is right, of course, and if you paid a 'collector' price for it, you ought to do everything you can to maintain its value. But there are a few #2s in the world, and probably many which are far more collectable than the plane you have, so if you bought it intending to use it, you can probably do so with a reasonably clear conscience...

The metal bits are only going to suffer minor wear & tear, apart from the blade, but a modern replacement blade is likely to be a much better blade in any case. So if you were to put the knob, tote & existing blade in a safe place & make replacement wood, you would probably be able to use it as much as you wish without knocking too much off the value when it comes time to pass on to a new custodian.

New Guinea Rosewood (Pterocarpus sp.) is not a good substitute for 'real' Rosewoods (Dalbergia spp.), imo, it doesn't have the density & fine oily grain of the Dalbergias so won't finish to anything like the quality of Rosewood, however hard you work at it. Unfortunately, you would be extremely unlikely to find a chunk of the Brazilian Rosewood like the original, but Cocobolo is fairly easy to get (at a price!) and is a pretty good substitute (in terms of 'feel'). Cocobolo tends to be a bit lighter colour, but it does darken up after a while. Some pieces are very dark & quite similar to the Rosewood of old handles - I've got a piece atm that you would be hard pressed to tell apart ('tisn't big enough to get a tote out of, though).

Edit: Not sure of the knob sizes relative to a #3, but knob heights on higher number planers vary, so when making a new knob, it's always best to fit it to the stud, or simply copy the existing knob if it's still there.

Cheers,

[auscab]

I use them John . Its not like your going to be using it for four hours a day every day .

I use tools as much as I can every day and I know I will be wearing out before they do , except for pencils maybe

And I don't care what is saved for the future , they are hand planes and we enjoy them now . future generations could very well melt them all down .
Whats the point of saving it for someone else to throw it away . A lady in our street threw out a box containing her husbands planes , he had gone on to the great workbench in the sky. three vintage Stanley block planes and about four vintage brass pressure gauges
Look whats happening with Antique furniture and High quality old machinery , no one wants most of it.

How about getting a BRW no 3 or 4 knob and turning that down to a no 2 size ?

I just checked my no 2 and its a low knob , a 3 low knob will do it but not a 3 high knob.

As for a blade , I fixed up a no 7 SW blade by brazing a good bit of steel to the end of the old blade. I had to make a jig for it . Not cheap to pay to have someone do all that but possible . The new steel came from a new Stanley blade. there must be cheaper ways of doing that I suppose.

Rob

[IanW]

.....As for a blade , I fixed up a no 7 SW blade by brazing a good bit of steel to the end of the old blade. I had to make a jig for it . Not cheap to pay to have someone do all that but possible . The new steel came from a new Stanley blade. there must be cheaper ways of doing that I suppose.

Strewth Rob, that seems like a lot of trouble, why wouldn't you just buy a plain old replacement blade from LV? And there's at least a fair chance it will be better than the original.

Cheers,

[derekcohen]

Hi John

If you cannot repair the knob (depending on what the extent of the damage), which would be my first avenue, you could try turning a larger Stanley Rosewood knob down to the correct size/dimension. That way you keep the wood consistent. As far as I am aware, the #2 is smaller than the #3, and so they are not interchangeable.

I remain curious what you plan to use the #2 for (some use it as a block plane).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[auscab]

Any one noticed an Echo around here ?? Derek Derek Derek ? Hello Hello Hello see post no five five five lol... lol lol



Ian , it was about keeping the original look of a vintage no 7 that was in nice crisp condition even though well used . And I wanted to try it out.
I have two others to do which are more important .
A friend has a Spiers Mitre plane with an original snecked Ward iron , a lovely early example of a mitre plane as well but the blade has nothing left in it . I will be welding that not brazing , Im aiming for an invisible repair and no change to the original temper of the blade .
I have a similar parallel iron for a smoother as well.
So the 7 was practice I will have to give those new blades a try though.


When I'm restoring BRW furniture, the closest timber I like to simulate BRW with is Blackwood , it matches well to a faded background colour of BRW , some dark lines and age get added in and polished over .
The dark colour of Handles may work with blackwood if you iron oxide stain it . Blackwood responds well to iron oxide stain , it ebonizes it.

Rob

[IanW]

.....it was about keeping the original look of a vintage no 7 that was in nice crisp condition even though well used . And I wanted to try it out....

I guessed that was what you must've been at, Rob, otherwise a new blade would be far cheaper than a couple of hours of your time!

.......... will be welding that not brazing , I'm aiming for an invisible repair and no change to the original temper of the blade......

I didn't know you were a dabbler in metalwork, and apparently a pretty accomplished one at that - making a seamless join would be beyond my capabilities. There would be a lot of over-filling, & much grinding/filing/sanding to level out the mess, and it would be a small miracle if the blade ended up flat!

Cheers,

[derekcohen]

Any one noticed an Echo around here ?? Derek Derek Derek ? Hello Hello Hello see post no five five five lol... lol lol ....

You're right, Rob ... I read the first part of your reply, was stunned that someone wanted to use a #2 ... and could not read further.

Obviously we are brilliant in out problem solving skills!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[auscab]

I didn't know you were a dabbler in metalwork, and apparently a pretty accomplished one at that - making a seamless join would be beyond my capabilities. There would be a lot of over-filling, & much grinding/filing/sanding to level out the mess, and it would be a small miracle if the blade ended up flat!

Cheers,

With the no 7 it was a braze with bronze , the jig kept it flat and it was a matter of grinding off the excess and linishing , but you get the gold 45 degree join showing. as long as the two joined pieces were straight after brazing it was good.

The Spiers blades have a more hammered forge finish , it makes it easier to blend things in . disguising the joins like this in metal work is not as hard to do, if you have the tools. I'm using a Mig welder and an Oxy and LPG for this. You weld them with over fill and grind most of it off with an angle grinder, 96% of it off . and then heat it with a torch to a bright orange to yellow then hammer it out a little , check its flat and straight and heat it a few more times , each time it cools down it sheds layers black oxidized metal and the join disappears .

With keeping the temper , I just keep dipping in water . Pete showed me a good trick for smaller pieces of sticking the bit you don't want hot in wet sand in a small bucket . that will work well with a plane blade .

Rob

[ivanavitch]

Thanks guys
Derek
I realise that it is collectable, but I'm not one for having a tool and not using it. The alternative is to keep it inside but then they become dust collectors. Not that things in the shed don't collect dust but at least it's nice clean sawdust.
So I wish to keep it both as a collectable, hence removing the sweetheart iron and the tote with decal, and as a part time user, just because I want to.
Rob
I do care about what happens to my tools in the future. Fortunately I have a son and a son in law who both appreciate the kind of stuff that I do. But like you I'm going to get my use out of it first.
Ian
I'm already on eBay looking for knobs. Also looking at repairing the current knob. It is missing the bottom half an inch for maybe 50% of its circumference. I still have the old knob from the 10 1/2 you turned a new knob for, plus most of a tote from a #6 so I may be able to salvage some wood from them.
Thank you all for your input.
John

[auscab]

You're right, Rob ... I read the first part of your reply, was stunned that someone wanted to use a #2 ... and could not read further.

Yes , I like using vintage planes, but the 2 is not one I reach for at all really . I work on furniture that is to large for it.
I think it would be great on cleaning up small box sides, shoe box size, and similar sized pieces , as a small smoother.

I love having one though , Its so small that I know I don't need a no 1 to use, except for completing the range of Stanley sizes

Rob

[pmcgee]

I hadn't thought of the #2 as necessarily such a collectors item.

When I was looking some time ago they could be found reliably for about $200 in the US.

I have a Stanley one with a knob that's lighter than the rosewood tote, and one with no cast maker's name, a brazed repair and nicely remade handles.
I think it was only $70ish.

In the US they were made in that size by many different makers ... (guessing now) Miller Falls, Fulton, etc and can be found in all sorts of conditions.

I think it's like the classic Norris A5. I bought a 'show piece' one from Patrick Leach, and a good user from England.
When I was following them for a long time on UK ebay ... looking for a good buy ... there were quite a number of VERY well-used (abused) examples ... horrible condition some of them.

Enjoy it.

Cheers,
Paul

[pmcgee]

Forgot to say ... I think Peter McBride has a collection of the more exotic #2-sized planes.