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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    Was this the problem with the first chipbreaker - that you could not adjust it because the adjuster would not extend the blade?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Deerek I created this problem with the first chipbreaker because I honed it and the thread came out.

    What Ian suggested is word is word for word what me David from LN were discussing about, amazing.

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  3. #137
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    After all this discussion of tuning planes (in a thread about water stones), Chris Schwarz writes about tuning a Lie Nielsen plane by honing his back iron.
    http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...s-schwarz-blog

  4. #138
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    I have already posted a bunch of stuff that was a shot that missed the bull, but since the honing of the cap iron is brought up again, as I mentioned earlier, the fact that you can't hone the cap iron on some LN planes and not run out of travel is a design or manufacturing defect in their planes. You have to be able to hone the leading edge of the cap, or it's not useful to mitigate tearout.

    Chris was late to the game with using the cap iron, so be it. He and many others spent years telling throngs of students that the cap iron existed so that it could be moved out of the way. He's still incorrect about one thing, and that is the sharp sharp sharp comment. Part of the virtue of the cap iron is that you can mitigate tearout without extreme sharpness. You can mitigate it with an edge as coarse as a medium india. It's the loss of clearance that makes the plane a pain to use when the cap iron is set correctly.

    When all of this started more than 3 years ago, I mentioned that none of the new cap iron designs are an improvement over the stanley design (which never runs out of travel, provides some spring to the whole setup, which makes adjustment a lot more like riding in a car with shocks vs. riding in a buckboard wagon), and now all of this advice is being given to profile the front of a cap so that the angle is about what it is on a stock stanley cap. Veritas got it right with their first generation of bench planes by just making the cap a similar design, but a little bit heavier than the stanley stamping.

    Lie nielsen and hock and others went right to a simpler design that can be cut from bar stock and asserted it is an improvement, but they did so without having any clue how to use the cap iron properly.

    A mistake that is easy to make when there's little information about actually using one. It's not as if they have or had ill intentions with the defect in travel of the adjuster, etc (or more accurately, the inaccurate placement of the hole in the cap iron where the adjustment dog engages the cap).

  5. #139
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    Default Eureka!!!

    I've seen this thread floating around for a while, but I never clicked it because of the title. I had heard tell through the grapevine of the infamous chipbreaker thread, but it eluded me... until now.

    I don't like to think of myself as a beginner. I think that implies a lack of ability, and I think I've been able to pull off some pretty significant joinery projects. Nonetheless, I've been working wood about a year and it took me about 4 months to realize that power tools are not my thing. I'm still very much in a state of developing my skills.

    I was referred to this thread as a result of a post I made about an upcoming furniture project in figured timber (E. regnans) and my fear of a tearout nightmare. I just read it tonight.

    After getting home from work about an hour ago, I went downstairs and did exactly what Derek suggested. I flattened the back of the chipbreaker, then I steepened the angle at which it contacts the blade, and set it back ~0.4mm, which is where it was already. I would estimate that my chipbreaker is now contacting the blade at ~70deg.

    Then, I decided that, since Derek was planing figured wood AGAINST THE GRAIN... I would try some figured wood WITH the grain. Fiddleback Blackwood. My nemesis. Every time I work Blackwood I have problems with tearout, even the "straight"-grained stuff. This is arguably the gnarliest (but most beautiful) piece of it to ever grace my shop.

    Lo and behold... DEAD FLAT. Dead flat, people. No tearout. An absolutely beautiful finish. I was floored. I decided I would get cocky and turn it around to plane against the grain. Fiddleback Blackwood. Against the grain. NO TEAROUT. This must be witchcraft. I literally used this EXACT same plane two nights ago on this piece of wood and was ripping cm long chunks out of it. I didn't even sharpen the blade since then. This chipbreaker alteration was 100% effective.

    Whatever it is, I say this next statement in complete seriousness: This is the most significant and positive breakthrough I've had since the first time I picked up a hand plane.

    I'm getting a bit of an accordion effect with my shavings, so I still have some improvements which can be made to the tuning. That will come in time. For now, I'm more focused on how the wood looks, not the shaving.

    PS Sorry things weren't working out for you S1

    PPS I am in no way paid by Derek Cohen

    PPPS The plane is a Veritas #4 with the Stanley style chip breaker. The one with the big curve behind where it contacts the blade.

  6. #140
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    That's good!!

    Now you can experiment with using the cap iron in other situations and step up the shaving thickness in those (pre-final smoothing type work) and do it without any significant risk.

    I haven't used the old bench plane style veritas, but that is the cap iron style that I prefer (rounded), as well as the old vintage wooden type (though you guys in australia have wood that can be undesirable to use with smaller wooden planes - teeth chattering, I'd say). Nonetheless, that's the profile that seems to yield the best in no-nonsense setup as well as results and proper feedback in use.

  7. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    Now you can experiment with using the cap iron in other situations and step up the shaving thickness in those (pre-final smoothing type work) and do it without any significant risk.
    Definitely. I'm really looking forward to doing this to my jointer plane.

  8. #142
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    Well done Luke! You are a wise and diligent student.

    And David, the only area we disagree is with the shape of the chipbreaker - I find the thin Stanley (that you prefer) too flexible and, as a result, more difficult to set precisely. I have no difficulty with the flat LV and LN in their respective planes. I have LV in my Stanleys.

    Incidentally, I have sled the Clifton stay-set in the past. A couple of weeks ago I had one of the original Record stay-set chip breakers in my hand. It is a different beast altogether - several standards of quality better than the Clifton.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  9. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    ......Incidentally, I have sled the Clifton stay-set in the past. A couple of weeks ago I had one of the original Record stay-set chip breakers in my hand. It is a different beast altogether - several standards of quality better than the Clifton.
    Ya won't get any argument from me on the desirability of the Cliftom two-piece cap-iron, Derek! You might remember my whinging about it when I got the plane 10 or so tears back. I class them as one of those great ideas that just don't live up to their promise. "Stay-set" is a misnomer - you are never going to get the blade back at your original setting when there is a good 32nd" or more backlash in the cam slot. And there's little you can do about that, because the cam has to be a bit loose to allow it to pivot as it moves the blade assembly back & forth. That itty-bitty loose part was just a nuisance begging to be lost in a pile of shavings, mine was so poorly made, that if you set the fixed part on the blade straight, when the tip was put in place it was severely un-straight - to have the right gap on one side meant it overhung the edge on t'other! To get an even gap I had to slew the fixed part in a most unsightly way. I gave it away to someone and put a single cap-iron on instead.

    I've read someone's view (can't remember where or when) that the main advantage of the 'stay-set' design is that it doesn't cause flexing of the blade when the screw is tightened down, since both bits that are screwed together are flat. This means more of the blade sits on the frog and gives you a more firmly bedded blade, according to that writer. Dunno about that - I don't have any troubles with blade seating that I'm aware of, but it may contribute a little to solidity of the blade/frog combination, that just might be important in some situations.

    Someday I'll sort out this super-close cap-iron thing, but in the meantime, I have gotten by with my old ways quite ok. Maybe I should offer to pay Luke for a lesson.?

    Cheers,
    IW

  10. #144
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    I felt like I should follow up my last post after coming down from Cloud 9.

    Tonight I spent some time applying finish to some turned pieces and cleaning my shop, but at the end of the night I decided to try the same technique on my jointer plane.

    Same story. Planed a piece of fiddleback Blackwood and got tearout. Took the chipbreaker off, flattened it, steepened it, and set it closer to the blade. Planed the exact same piece of Blackwood in the same direction with the same edge on the blade. No tearout, and that was with thicker, jointer plane shavings. This configuration not only works, but, in my case, is repeatable! I then tested it on some fiddleback Tasmanian Oak (E regnans), and I got the same, beautiful results. I won't continue to spam the thread, but I will be moving forward with this change on the rest of my BD bench planes.

    Also, further to my post when I mentioned that I was getting accordion shavings with the #4, I simply opened the mouth a bit and this stopped.

    I stand in reverence...

    Cheers,
    Luke

  11. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    Well done Luke! You are a wise and diligent student.

    And David, the only area we disagree is with the shape of the chipbreaker - I find the thin Stanley (that you prefer) too flexible and, as a result, more difficult to set precisely. I have no difficulty with the flat LV and LN in their respective planes. I have LV in my Stanleys.

    Incidentally, I have sled the Clifton stay-set in the past. A couple of weeks ago I had one of the original Record stay-set chip breakers in my hand. It is a different beast altogether - several standards of quality better than the Clifton.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    It may be in what we're used to. I can't give up the spring the stanley cap iron gives the assembly, it makes for a nice feel. The rest on my part is laziness, the stanley and stock types of that ilk are right at a desirable angle right away.

    It all works either way, though, the feel of the plane in installing the iron and adjustment while using it is the biggest difference.

    I have had, every once in a great while, really stiff woods like planing the edge of cocobolo (which has really strong flat ribbons of wood planed on edge, but the quartered face is relatively weak) get under the cap iron on a plane - that being the vintage type. It hasn't happened often, though. I haven't planed it with new style caps to see if the same problem exists. I've seen janka numbers listing cocobolo at 3k and at something like 1000. I have to think that the difference is whether the dent is made on edge in the late wood, or if it's made on a quartered face where the early wood is soft and brittle.

  12. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Maddux View Post
    I felt like I should follow up my last post after coming down from Cloud 9.

    Tonight I spent some time applying finish to some turned pieces and cleaning my shop, but at the end of the night I decided to try the same technique on my jointer plane.

    Same story. Planed a piece of fiddleback Blackwood and got tearout. Took the chipbreaker off, flattened it, steepened it, and set it closer to the blade. Planed the exact same piece of Blackwood in the same direction with the same edge on the blade. No tearout, and that was with thicker, jointer plane shavings. This configuration not only works, but, in my case, is repeatable! I then tested it on some fiddleback Tasmanian Oak (E regnans), and I got the same, beautiful results. I won't continue to spam the thread, but I will be moving forward with this change on the rest of my BD bench planes.

    Also, further to my post when I mentioned that I was getting accordion shavings with the #4, I simply opened the mouth a bit and this stopped.

    I stand in reverence...

    Cheers,
    Luke
    Once you've got the cap iron thing down, even a little, there's no reason to have a tight mouth. It just creates problems, and a tight mouth is less capable than a cap iron, something I'm sorry to say from experience after building an infill from scratch with a 4 thousandth mouth (I wish I'd have learned to use the cap iron first).

    Every bench plane i have now has the frog set even with the bottom of the casting, and I look at the infill plane once in a while to make sure it's not rusting while it sits on the shelf.

    The jones will continue when you have a panel to flatten sometime and you're working back against the grain due to laziness around not wanting to move the panel out of the dogs, etc, holding it. And you can get away with it because the cap iron will allow it, even if set back just a little off of a tight setting so you can push through large shavings.

  13. #147
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    Hi David

    Chris Schwarz added an interesting - useful - tip on his blog in tuning a chipbreaker (he refers to it as a back iron). Essentially, this involves tuning the leading edge over as one would a turn a burr on a scraper. This adds insurance to other preparation by ensuring that shavings do not get into gaps. I tried it. Seems to work - at least it did not reduce effectiveness.



    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  14. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
    Hi David

    Chris Schwarz added an interesting - useful - tip on his blog in tuning a chipbreaker (he refers to it as a back iron). Essentially, this involves tuning the leading edge over as one would a turn a burr on a scraper. This adds insurance to other preparation by ensuring that shavings do not get into gaps. I tried it. Seems to work - at least it did not reduce effectiveness.



    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    It might be worth trying on a cap iron that was out of geometry, but I haven't had to resort to it. There may be people with slightly bellied irons that would benefit from it, though.

    I have attempted to roll some old woody cap irons that were close, but in the end just fixed the geometry on them, too, they wouldn't feed until they were properly correctly geometrically.

    Cocobolo edge shavings are a special case if you really try to push the limit with shaving thickness. Stiffer than anything else I've planed, and never a problem with shavings inserting themselves between on anything else. I guess the skeptic in me after having attempted to roll over the edges on a couple of old ones has me thinking that if the cap iron isn't fitted when off of the stones, it probably should be corrected on the stones.

  15. #149
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    So is that it? Is tearout just... over now?

    This just seems so black and white. If the issue of tearout is solved to the point of being able to plane figured timber against the grain, just by steepening the chip breaker, then why did it ever exist in the first place? Why would plane manufacturers put items into the market which create tearout when they could simply change the breaker angle and sell tearout-free planes?

    I'm genuinely taken aback by the severity of the improvement which I've experienced just by changing something so minute and simple.

  16. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Maddux View Post
    So is that it? Is tearout just... over now?

    This just seems so black and white. If the issue of tearout is solved to the point of being able to plane figured timber against the grain, just by steepening the chip breaker, then why did it ever exist in the first place? Why would plane manufacturers put items into the market which create tearout when they could simply change the breaker angle and sell tearout-free planes?

    I'm genuinely taken aback by the severity of the improvement which I've experienced just by changing something so minute and simple.
    You mean like the current premium plane manufacturers? It's pretty clear (by the fact that lie nielsens planes often couldn't be adjusted to set the cap close) that they don't use the cap iron and didn't at least until recently even know about it.

    LV tests a lot of things, maybe they tested the cap iron and concluded that the BU plane type is easier for beginners to master. I don't think their technical advisor believes that you can use the cap iron effectively in actual work. It's a bit difficult to test things like cap iron use scientifically and draw conclusions from it, you have to do exactly what you've done, just do it and let the subtleties of use improve with experience.

    If you're doing a lot of dimensioning by hand, you'll find that you get into a sort of nuance of setting the cap iron for penultimate steps so that a bit of tearout is allowed ( so that you can remove more wood faster ) and that the ultra close set is reserved for cases only when it's needed.

    It may be foreign to aussie users because of the hardness of the wood there, but medium hardwoods here (which are soft by your comparison) like cherry allow a flat wide 1 hundredth thick shaving in a try plane, perhaps thicker than that for someone bigger than me. The cap has to be moved back to double that or so or it's like pushing a bulldozer, and the result is minor tearout that you can remove with the smoother. the option to keep the cap iron close enough so that you never get any tearout it something optimal only if you do all of your accurate dimensioning by machine and only need to remove chatter and get a finish surface.

    Or more simply put, you'll find that there are (non smoothing) situations where managing/limiting the tearout is more advantageous than eliminating it, and don't get so lazy that you always plane against the grain if you read a board incorrectly, it's still faster to plane downgrain when the lumber allows.

    ECE makes a double iron rabbet plane that I also find useful, but it is a bit rube goldberg because the front section has to be slid open to get the iron assembly out to sharpen it. It does, however, allow someone cutting mouldings and rabbets by hand to work wood that would otherwise leave a lot of sanding with a single iron rabbet plane. They want a lot of money for it, though! but they show up used here from time to time for $25-$50.

    One other side comment, you'll find you can now smooth pieces with through strokes. No skewing the plane needed (except maybe to get a clean start at a board end with a heavy cut), no cross grain stuff, no changing directions, etc, and a final set of through strokes across the whole surface of something with good continuous shavings is your insurance that you've gotten the whole surface and won't later look across a board and find a low spot that was missed.

    (you may still find a board from time to time that doesn't like to be planed to perfection by anything, cap iron or not. Quartered cocobolo has been the most particular thing for me, it's got very weak and crumbly earlywood in some cases on a quartered face that wants to crush under the contact of any iron or scraper).

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