Saw Sharpening Needed

[Heavansabove]

Peter

As FF has pointed out they are probably made in India, but they are also $18 each for 100mm file, $19 each for 130mm and $20 each for 150mm! (Does include postage.) I think I know now why I have bought NOS from overseas. I was baulking at the cost. Perhaps I should have bought more! Regards Paul

Know what you mean Paul, I was in US for 2 months end of last year, so postage was not an issue, and picked up quite a few. I hope to get quite a substantial number shortly (including some 4.5" and 5" DEST), and postage seems not too bad. Hope seller has calculated postage accurately.

For what I plan to sell, my prices will be reasonable (below Bahco prices in Australia) for NOS Wiltshire, Baiter, Nicholson, Disston, Simonds, Heller, Oberg etc.

Cheers
Peter

[FenceFurniture]

I am guessing the seller is Mike Jeffries, Woodwork Book & Tool Co.

Yes it is Peter.

His response to my question:
"A lot of European countries now get their products made in China and then, with slack country of origin laws as bad as ours, do enough added work so they can claim 'Made in Switzerland etc.
As far as I know these are Swiss but if you are sure thay are not please let me know because I need to be sure I'm not making an incorrect claim
See the pic of the box.

The Ferropak style paper in which the files are folded is very high quality.
Having seen the corners Chinese makers cut I would be very surprised if these are not the real McCoy.

In our main site we also offer saw files F.D. files which I think are Pferd from Germany"


To which I responded that Grobet USA, Grobet Swiss, F.Dick, Pferd and a host of others are all made in India. I said I understood what he meant about the value adding, and country of origin, and that in this case the Ferropak paper and box probably are indeed worth more than the files.

He thought it was a sad state of affairs, and he's right.

[Heavansabove]

You know, we have a lot of very good knife makers here. They have all the gear.

Getting a bit of steel to the right temps, doing the whole anneal, temper, hardening process should be right up their alley. Cleaning with soda too.

Perhaps we can give a band of them some good-but-not-quite-there files and use those to make us up a special batch? Do the process right.....as such.

How many do we need? 100? Should be doable as a group thing? No?

Unfortunately, hardness (too much or not enough) is just ONE of the problems. The grinding and honing of the steel blank is casual at best - the cutting of the teeth is not a quality issue it seems - AND the makers possess no idea what taper means. Also remember they are not using top quality steel, and we do not know what alloys they are using. That is one reason why modern files are unsuitable for knife making.

[Bushmiller]

I said I understood what he meant about the value adding, and country of origin, and that in this case the Ferropak paper and box probably are indeed worth more than the files.

He thought it was a sad state of affairs, and he's right.

Brett

I don't know Mike Jeffries, but his response indicates some integrity. He was clearly unaware and misled by statements on the packaging just as most people are. I guess that ruined a person's day .

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

I don't know Mike Jeffries, but his response indicates some integrity. He was clearly unaware and misled by statements on the packaging just as most people are. I guess that ruined a person's day .

I hope so. Proof of that will be if the ebay ad changes wording, along with the website. They both clearly state "Made in Switzerland".

I think there are many vendors that are misled by the country of origin thing. Too many times they are innocent enough to believe that, just as one example, Grobet Swiss indicates that it was made in Switzerland.

Even Lee Valley believed that the files were Swiss made - I got them to check. Being the diligent and forthright company that they are they went to some efforts to find out the country of origin, which is indeed Switzerland. The Bill of Lading (or whatever it was) stated that they came from Switzerland. It's just not the original country of origin.

[FenceFurniture]

You know, we have a lot of very good knife makers here. They have all the gear.

Getting a bit of steel to the right temps, doing the whole anneal, temper, hardening process should be right up their alley. Cleaning with soda too.

Perhaps we can give a band of them some good-but-not-quite-there files and use those to make us up a special batch? Do the process right.....as such.

How many do we need? 100? Should be doable as a group thing? No?

Ev, would you ask a file make to make a knife for you? I think not.

Peter (heavans) has nailed it. About the only thing right with current files is the teeth shape. Everything, and I do actually mean everything else is wrong:
quality of steel (perhaps even the type of steel)
shape (either have a proper taper or make it parallel, but don't taper the untoothed tip and call it a "Taper" file)
Brittleness
Softness
Grinding of blank
size of edges

are all up the putty.

Making files is very specialised. In that monster thread 2 years ago the conclusion was the such a simple little tool is indeed quite a complex little sucker, and we have lost the reasons why. Only one person on the planet (the thread was running everywhere) was able to explain exactly what the taper was for, and that man was Claw Hama. I had previously been on a campaign of "what's the use of a taper anyway - convince me", and when I read his explanation it was a light bulb moment - made perfect sense but definitely not obvious until explained.

[FenceFurniture]

Anyway, who was the clown that brought up saw file quality again???

I was having a nice quiet life.

[pmcgee]

I was having a nice quiet life.

And we can't be having that.
Paul

[IanW]

You know, we have a lot of very good knife makers here. They have all the gear.

Getting a bit of steel to the right temps, doing the whole anneal, temper, hardening process should be right up their alley. Cleaning with soda too.

Perhaps we can give a band of them some good-but-not-quite-there files and use those to make us up a special batch? Do the process right.....as such.

How many do we need? 100? Should be doable as a group thing? No?

Evanism, I hate to pour cold water on your enthusiasm, but I'm highly skeptical that anyone without pretty dedicated gear, and quite a bit of trial & error, could harden & temper a batch of files consistently enough to make the exercise worthwhile. Ask Noel Liogier. Apart from that, it would have to be a love job, because there's no way you could charge a reasonable hourly rate & keep the cost within anything like sensible limits! And of course, you are making an assumption that the steel they've used is actually up to the job. It might be, but poor quality steels might be half our problem....

Even supposing you could pull it off, a hundred files one-off, won't solve the ongoing problem - that's barely a couple years' supply for me, let alone all the other saw-sharpeners & wannabe saw-sharpeners looking for good saw files! I'm being patient, and putting my money on someone in the US or Europe reincarnating some old machinery, or something like that (we've got to run out of NOS sometime soon!). They've got much bigger potential markets, so it may well be worthwhile producing a limited range of files at a (reasonable!) premium. As has been discussed on the Forum, it doesn't need to be a huge range, you could adequately cover the most common tooth sizes with about 3 file sizes, or say half a dozen, to please the most picky.....

Cheers,

[Chris Parks]

Ian, the bean counters have spoken so I doubt that anyone will make files as they were once made. It will be interesting to see if anyone carries on the tradition of rasp making after Liogier lay down their tools as they must do one day.

[Bushmiller]

Ian, the bean counters have spoken so I doubt that anyone will make files as they were once made. It will be interesting to see if anyone carries on the tradition of rasp making after Liogier lay down their tools as they must do one day.

Oh no!

First it was the files and now maybe the rasps too. Is there no end to the despair and misery .

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

Noel Liogier does not have any sons to pass the business on to, but I believe it will still be carried on after he retires.

[Bushmiller]

Noel Liogier does not have any sons to pass the business on to, but I believe it will still be carried on after he retires.

Phew!

Regards
Paul

[pmcgee]

Those old photos of roomfuls of guys tapping away making files by hand ...

They might like to read a letter from 2015 to say "Hope it's not too late to say this but ... we really value your work "

[Simplicity]

So my idea of making a fortune selling hand made hand sharpened boutique saws maybe on hold till I can set up and learn how to make hand made and hand sharpened boutique files ,bugger and that is not going to happen ,
But all jokes a side, this is quite a serious matter no files ,no nice saws .
That leaves us with only those saws we don't talk about from the big chain stores.
Have I missed it ,but have we had any of the state side and Europe , cousins chipping in here especially saw makers sharpeners .


Brett can u pm the link to the huge discussion that happened here a few years back
.I wouldn't mind reading it again when I finish reading war and peace, please.[emoji2]
Cheers Matt