Seaton, anyone?

[hiroller]

There is an oblique view of the saw handles in the book.
The top horn is quite pointed - almost gothic looking.
The bottom horn is quite square with slight rounding.
There are also detailed drawings in the book but they show the bottom view of the saw only so the top horn shape is hidden.
Here is an example of the drawing courtesy of Blackburn Tools.
image.jpg

[Corneel]

Thanks for the info, both David and Hiroller. I just had a look in the book (one of my favorites) and you are right. In the picture of the sawtill in the lid of the box, you can see a bit more.

Both the dovetail and the carcass saws with the open handles have rather pointy horns top and botton, while the London patern closed handles are indeed almost square on the bottom horn.

I has a look at the Wenzloff saws. They are very nice saws (and they weren't expensive when you could buy them) but they don't quite make it compared to the originals. Maybe it's just the pictures though.

[pmcgee]

I has a look at the Wenzloff saws. They are very nice saws (and they weren't expensive when you could buy them) but they don't quite make it compared to the originals. Maybe it's just the pictures though.

Age adds to beauty, too.

... In *some* cases.

Paul


Bottom of the page had this link ..... https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/toolchest-benjamin-seaton-2nd-ed-150690

[D.W.]

I'm sure there are some unknown makers somewhere making only a couple of saws and doing as nice, but I don't know who they are.

Only George's saw handles are comparable to those seaton handles shown (those of the saws he's made for himself).

I asked him about time to make those handles (keeping in mind he only ever did semi production of saws and wouldn't have had to have worked as fast as a maker in the 18th and 19th centuries would), and he said he'd guess about 5 hours.

for a maker as skilled and fine as george to take that kind of time, you know that there is going to be no quick way to make them for production.

Long way of saying that Mike's seaton saws were not as fine as georges or the originals, mike eased the edges a little bit, the details were less crisp and the lines less so, but that said, Mike's handles were awfully awfully nice for the price he charged. Too nice, in my opinion.

I cannot make a handle of the quality of george's yet. I consider that and the seaton handles, with those superb lines, to be a target for my planes (can't say I'm interested in making more saws).

I am gushing over those seaton saws, but they really are of the finest caliber, a level of work most current saw makers can't do. Not just won't, but can't, especially not in number. There are a lot of nice handles on custom saws right now, but not like those.

[Corneel]

Looking at this picture I now finally get what you were writing earlier David. The horn tip runs in a curve from the handle part all the way to the very tip. The tip almost turns backwards again. That makes them look pointy in the pictures, while the cricumference is quite round indeed. Well spotted!

[D.W.]

It's hard to describe!! When I think of fairing that curve on a handle, I want to do two things - I want the line on the side to be nice and crisp, and I want the handle to be strong enough survive rough play on the bench. To survive a fall on a concrete floor, it has to be too fat.

But that curve that you could take a half circle or so and run it from the middle of the handle almost to to the tip of the horn. It's something like radius 1/3rd inch or 1/2 inch.

the other way to make a handle is to decrease that faired radius after you pass the part where the web of your hand goes, (or just flatten it out) and make what's more like a duck bill top horn. Like this:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/tRestore/...aftsman-02.asp

Because the radius is kept almost all the way to the tip of the horn on the seaton closed handled saws, the lines look superb from the side, but the horn itself still has good thickness (so it's strong, too, stronger than would be the thinned disston style handle shown above).

They are really exceptional, I hadn't thought through all of this before, but I'm glad it came up. Sometimes when you see things, you think they look fine and then you forget to try to figure out why.

[Corneel]

So it is a bit like this. Three curves in increasing radius form the shape of the horn tip. The inner most curve is not really circular but a bit flattened down. (Click on the image to make it larger)

curves.jpg

[D.W.]

Almost.

The middle line doesn't make it to the end of the handle, though.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib2/...eatonCh-05.asp

Look at the picture third from the bottom.
see the curved radius of the handle on the very back? it's kept large almost to the end of the saw, and not flattened much until the tip. That forces the middle line to terminate in the horn at the top before the end. That is what makes it look especially fantastic.

[Corneel]

Yep you are right. I was a bit too quick with paint. The bottom horn is also like that. And the small bottom horn pointing to the front is quite spectaculair too. Here the finger curve flows so nice all the way to the tip.

41a.jpg

[D.W.]

I can't see the pictures of george's handles on SMC, but I recall them being similar to that on the open handled saw. The closed handled saw was more like groves (but groves has a lot of similar crispness to these handles).

If one ever wanted to store a picture of a dovetail saw handle to copy, this seaton dovetail saw is it, but it'd be quite difficult to make it that crisp on the first one.

[hiroller]

Here are some of George Wilson's saws he made at Colonial Williamsburg.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...lson&styleid=3

[Bushmiller]

Age adds to beauty, too.

... In *some* cases.

Paul


Bottom of the page had this link ..... https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/toolchest-benjamin-seaton-2nd-ed-150690

Paul

Wine and tools perhaps, but humans.....very debatable .

In fact I had seen that link aand checked it out, but it doesn't look like the offer of the book with the subscription is still available. Pity.

Regards
Paul

[hiroller]

If you are interested in a copy of the book on the tool chest, I got mine from Astragal Press who sell it in a set with a book on Christopher Gabriel, the vendor who supplied most of the tools in the chest.
http://www.astragalpress.com/ChrisGab_BenSeat.htm
They have a bunch of interesting books including the recently reissued books by Whelan on wooden planes:
http://www.astragalpress.com/John_Whelan_Books.htm

[D.W.]

Here are some of George Wilson's saws he made at Colonial Williamsburg.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...lson&styleid=3

Thanks for posting that photo. Fortunately, Bob R hosted it somewhere else so I can see it (if you can't log in on SMC, you can't see pictures hosted there).

George would mention that those saws are intentional copies and that he and Jon (his journeyman in that picture) had top copy things exactly for the museum. His personal saws have some extra embellishment, but of the tasteful type (but difficult to do as nicely as he does) and not overdone.

The article doesn't mention anything about Jon, either, but Jon is one of a very small number of people who can make an 18th century rifle from scratch with 18th century techniques, including creating a barrel by hand from sheet stock and forging all of the lock parts.

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.c...n-laubach.html

[Corneel]

Georges copy's of early 19th century Grove saws.