Shoulder Plane Confusion

[kevmeister68]

Hello All,

I'm a newcomer to the forums and I've got a few questions about shoulder planes that I'd be thankful to get some answers on.

I don't currently own any shoulder planes but am looking a purchasing my first one. The toss-up is between the LN and LV brands. From the research I've done so far, a lot of people seem to give the nod to the LV planes. The LN now has an adjustable mouth as I understand it, so the two primary reasons people prefer the LV are a. the ergonomics (of holding it, the rotating knobs), and b. the set screws that hold the blade.

My question pertains to those set screws.

Having no experience with shoulder planes (but being aware of what they are used for) I watched one of the LN videos on setting up or preparing your shoulder plane. Part of the video shows the plane being placed on its side on a flat surface, the cap iron screw loosened, and the blade being pushed down so its edge lies on the same "plane" as the side of the shoulder plane. In other words, ensuring the side projection of the blade is aligned with the plane body.

Do people tend to use only one side of the plane to register against the workpiece, or do they tend to use either side of the plane for registration depending on what they are doing? Obviously each time you switch sides you need to realign your blade to that side, unless you are lucky enough for your plane blade to have the exact same width as the body.

If it's the latter, that leaves me wondering just how useful the set screws are on the Veritas shoulder plane - it leaves me thinking that most users only register off one face of the plane.

Can someone shed a light please?

Thanks

Kevin

[IanW]

... Having no experience with shoulder planes (but being aware of what they are used for) I watched one of the LN videos on setting up or preparing your shoulder plane. Part of the video shows the plane being placed on its side on a flat surface, the cap iron screw loosened, and the blade being pushed down so its edge lies on the same "plane" as the side of the shoulder plane. In other words, ensuring the side projection of the blade is aligned with the plane body.

Do people tend to use only one side of the plane to register against the workpiece, or do they tend to use either side of the plane for registration depending on what they are doing? Obviously each time you switch sides you need to realign your blade to that side, unless you are lucky enough for your plane blade to have the exact same width as the body.

If it's the latter, that leaves me wondering just how useful the set screws are on the Veritas shoulder plane - it leaves me thinking that most users only register off one face of the plane.

Can someone shed a light please? ...

Well, I'll kick off the discussion. First up, I don't own either LN or LV shoulder planes, I have a home-made 1 1/4" steel & brass monster, and a petite HNT Gordon 1/2". The HNT is a simple, wedged plane, which is pretty easy to set up. I tend to set the edges by sight & feel rather than laying it on its side. My home-made plane has a depth adjuster, and it's a pest - wish I hadn't bothered to go to all the trouble, particularly since owning the Gordon plane & seeing how simple it is to set! I do have another (low angle) LV plane with the side set screws, & frankly, they do nothing for me, so they certainly wouldn't swing the deal for me.

The blade on my larger plane is a hair wider than the body, I set it so that there is a half-whisker of protrusion on both sides. I find I need that slight (& the emphasis is on slight!) protrusion to keep it cutting vertically. If I set the blade exactly flush with the body, the cut tends to creep out a little over a few mm of planing (though that's something one rarely does with a shoulder plane, these things are mainly for trimming that teeny bit off to even tenon shoulders, etc., for that perfect fit). I usually use mine with the right side registering, which is probably typical for a right-hander, but maybe not, my dad was a leftie, and I copied a lot of things he did, so I'm a bit weird with 'handedness'. I occasionally use the plane with the left side registering, so it's handy that I can set my blade to be 'just right' for both sides.

I'm intending to make myself another shoulder plane (sometime in the next 20 years!), and this will be a no-frills thing; no screw adjuster, a simple wedge to retain the blade, & certainly no set-screws! These things are set-&-forget - you set it up perfectly for the job after sharpening, & that's where it stays 'til it's dull & needs attention. The most difficult part about shoulder panes, imo, is keeping the cutting edge dead square to the sides.

Others' mileages will vary...

Cheers,

[Luke Maddux]

I actually have the Lee Valley Large Shoulder plane and the Bullnose plane. The Bullnose doubles as a small shoulder plane, which is nice, but I bought it for its useability as a chisel plane. (i.e. getting into corners). Nonetheless the below comments are applicable to both, really.

When I started off I was a LV fanboy. I had their bench planes and their joinery planes. Then I got a killer deal on a LN jointer. That totally changed my opinion on bench planes. The appreciation I gained for the Lie Nielsen eventually prompted me to try vintage Stanleys, and that's where I'll be operating for the forseeable future.

But that's only for bench planes... For joinery planes I have exclusively Lee Valley/Veritas stuff. I am extremely happy with their line. I think that joinery planes are a good area for tweaking and innovation, which is what Lee Valley does really well. They have a lot of little micro-adjusters etc and I think I would be hard pressed to find one that I thought was a gimmick or genuinely extraneous.

Regarding the shoulder plane specifically, I don't align it every time. As a matter of fact I've only aligned it once. The set screws allow you to set it to even with both sides, but they also serve as the lateral adjustment. After you get it where you want it, you just push it against the screws every time you replace it after sharpening, and it is back in business every time. Given that I use this plane almost exclusively for cleanup and fine tuning, I rarely ever even adjust the depth (it's always a super fine shaving). As Ian said, this really is a "set & forget" tool.

Also in alignment with Ian's comments, I mostly use mine right handed, but I definitely use it left handed as well, both ways with fantastic results.

I will never be without this plane. Highly, highly recommended. I'm in the process of a cleanout and getting rid of this one has not even crossed my mind.

Cheers,
Luke

[derekcohen]

I watched one of the LN videos on setting up or preparing your shoulder plane. Part of the video shows the plane being placed on its side on a flat surface, the cap iron screw loosened, and the blade being pushed down so its edge lies on the same "plane" as the side of the shoulder plane. In other words, ensuring the side projection of the blade is aligned with the plane body.

Do people tend to use only one side of the plane to register against the workpiece, or do they tend to use either side of the plane for registration depending on what they are doing? Obviously each time you switch sides you need to realign your blade to that side, unless you are lucky enough for your plane blade to have the exact same width as the body.

If it's the latter, that leaves me wondering just how useful the set screws are on the Veritas shoulder plane - it leaves me thinking that most users only register off one face of the plane.

Hi Kevin

Do pay attention to the set screws in the shoulder planes. While you do not have to use them, they are damn useful. The essence is that you can return the blade to the previous position after sharpening. When one uses a shoulder plane - ironically not as much for shoulders as for rebates - you always want the blade to project slightly beyond the body. This way it will plane into the corner. The amount of projection is really tiny, but it makes a big difference.

A blade that does not plane into the corner on a rebate will leave a fillet behind, and this will become progressively larger.

On a shoulder of a tenon it is not much different. It is common that, after sawing, there is a little fillet in the junction of the shoulder and cheek to remove. Typically one will remove this with a chisel. However it could just as easily be removed by the shoulder plane if you prefer.

I tend to square up shoulders with a chisel if possible (if there is enough "meat" to score a line), otherwise if there is just a smidgeon to remove, the shoulder plane is the tool to go to. You may need to work in both directions, since planing over an end will lead to spelching (breakout). The set screws will enable the blade to be moved across the body to the perfect position on that side. No mucking about.

I have used LN shoulder planes a fair amount (I do own a large number of LN planes generally, in addition to LV planes, so am not taking sides with a manufacturer. However I do own the LV shoulder planes). The LN shoulder planes are just not as ergonomically well designed as the LV. The LV planes are far more comfortable to use.

Then there are the choices of steel for blades. LV sell theirs with the option of O1, A2 and PM-V11. Given the choice, I'd get either O1 or PM-V11 since these are more comfortable at 25 degrees, should you wish to go that low (these are all BU designs, so bevel angle makes a difference, and the lower you go, the easier it is to plane end grain). Having said this, I have used A2 at 25 degrees for years without any issue. LN only offer A2 steel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[D.W.]

I'll throw in my opinion as a user. I had LN (large) and LV (medium) shoulder planes. If you're the type of person who wants to use a shoulder plane a lot, either would work fine. Rather than comparisons of set screws, etc, the important thing is that you get a tool, use it as it was designed to be used, and become familiar with it (especially in regard to keeping the iron in shape and setting it).

Also, I eventually dumped my shoulder planes because it's unusual for me to want a shoulder plane (vs. a bullnose or a rabbet plane), and bought an old infill shoulder plane just to have something with a little bit of style.

None of it has ever made much of a difference, I'll admit, because the bullnose and rabbet planes were what I should've gotten for rebate work in the first place, and chisels for shoulder work (a good rabbet plane can adjust those, too).

[planemaker]

Hi David. Your not trying to suggest that well known tool reviewers have a secret agenda.

Stewie;

[D.W.]

Hi David. Your not trying to suggest that well known tool reviewers have a secret agenda.

Stewie;

No, I'm saying that I suspect a lot of people get a shoulder plane because it seems like a tool you'd use a lot. And if I suspect correctly, I'd imagine a lot of people are trying to use them like rabbet planes, which a rabbet plane would be better for.

That, and what most of us are lacking when we start is familiarity with tools and keeping them up on a day to day routine with limited stress (for example, the enormous consternation that exists when people talk about sharpening skew irons. There's no need for apparatus, the plane sole itself tells you which way, if any, the iron is out of skew and adjustments are always minor and quick).

[derekcohen]

Hi David

I've never found much use for a bullnose rebate plane. I once had a Stanley #90 and sold it. A bullnose is better than a shoulder plane to plane up to a wall, however it still does not go all the way, so I do not see the point if I am going to either chisel or use a router plane for the remainder. On shoulders, a bullnose plane simply lacks the registration to come in from the toe, and it encourages one to plane in the opposite direction, which may lead to spelching.

A rebate plane is for rebates, not shoulders. It is too coarse in its setting - has too large a mouth for delicate work. However, as I mentioned earlier, I use a chisel more frequently when squaring tenon shoulders. The shoulder plane is, nevertheless, a very valuable plane, especially for detail work: squaring or rescuing rebates (most often I hit the target with a rebate plane, but when I don't the shoulder plane is the tool to use). It also cleans up mouldings and other trim work. For this I prefer the smaller shoulder planes: 1/2" and 3/4". I purchased the Veritas Large when visiting Ottawa, and it is a better plane than the 1 1/4" infill I own (yes, far too many planes ... but it is just a bit of fun ). Still, these large shoulder planes are best seen as all-rounders, where they double as planes for tenon cheeks as well. The 1/2" Veritas gets most use since it is just so nimble. The 1/2" LN infill is a nice plane as well. Gorgeous looking.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[D.W.]

I agree (paraphrasing your statement) that the infill planes are technically not as good as the all medal modern planes. They are good enough to work to a mark, though, and it was a trade I'm willing to make because I don't use a shoulder plane for shoulders, and all of my rabbet clean up occurs with a rabbet plane.

I use a bullnose (someone gave me their father's slater bullnose) only slightly more often than a shoulder plane, which means not much -I do kind of like that it can do bulk work safely and you can just finish cleanup with a chisel. I never liked the non-infill bullnose planes much, but I don't have an explanation why.

As far as not using the shoulder planes much, I found them frustrating to clean up shoulders compared to a good mark and a chisel, but I would probably feel different about that if I made a whole lot of large tenons where you mark can get off slightly just due to the size of tenons. I don't make many really large tenons, the only ones I can recall cutting are on my bench, and an off the chisel fit was fine for those. I think they would've been too big for a shoulder plane, anyway.

Though it's not standard practice, the death knell for shoulder planes sounded in my shop when I found an old ulmia double iron rabbet plane for $25. It's capable of very significant stock removal or very neat work, which can sometimes be a challenge with a single iron plane if the wood quality isn't the greatest.

[derekcohen]

^{A Slater Bullnose! Gad Dave, I forgot I have one of those! Restored it from a piece of junk. It's still a piece of junk for the furniture I build even though it now works ...}

I found an old ulmia double iron rabbet plane for $25.

OK, Dave .. I now think that you truly have an obsession for double irons.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[D.W.]

^{A Slater Bullnose! Gad Dave, I forgot I have one of those! Restored it from a piece of junk. It's still a piece of junk for the furniture I build even though it now works ...}





OK, Dave .. I now think that you truly have an obsession for double irons.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I definitely do! The rabbet plane is the closest one to where I'm indifferent because the ulmia plane with a double iron is a bit of a pain to take the iron out of and put it back in. It can take a thick against-the-grain shaving and do it with almost perfect surface quality, though, even as it's getting dull. I could live without it, I guess, but if I don't have to and it's cheap, then no need.

I still do bulk work with an old single iron skew rabbet plane when possible because it's a faster and easier plane to keep in shape - unless tearout is completely unacceptable (e.g., sizing a rabbet and accidentally tearout something out to the edge while doing bulk work).

[IanW]

...... I could live without it, I guess, but if I don't have to .....

I think that could be said of quite a few 'specialist' tools......

While I lived happily enough for many years without a shoulder plane, & used chisels for trimming shoulders, etc. as Derek mentioned, it is a nice thing to have on hand if you can afford one & have the space in your toolbox. Mine only come out two or three times a year for a serious workout, and they get used for a few fine trim jobs in between times in a 'convenient but not essential' role. They're not quite a one-trick pony, but they don't have a big repertoire, that's for sure, so I wouldn't rate them on the list of 'must-have' tools. I'm pleased I have mine, but they are far from the first tool I'd buy if I had to start over.

On the general philosophy of when to acquire specialised tools, clearly mileages vary, but if you are in the early stages of your woodworking career, I certainly wouldn't recommend you rush out & buy any new tool without seriously considering how much use it will get. Unless you are fortunate enough to have an unlimited tool budget, I'd suggest you work on acquiring the most essential & the more versatile tools first. If you do a lot of hand work involving wide tenons and other joints involving end-grain that need to fit seamlessly, a s.p. can make life easier, but there are workarounds that, with care, will deliver just as good a result, so if your need is very occasional, a s.p. could be an expensive luxury. A good quality inch & a half or inch & a quarter chisel, at a fraction of the price, kept very sharp & the back really flat, can do a very fine job of trimming shoulders to a knifed line, as Derek has said - in fact I would reach for one to trim a narrow shoulder rather than a s.p.. While not as technically pleasing, perhaps, a good set of chisels is much more versatile than a shoulder plane.

I think most of us go through stages of wanting tools that seem like a quick way to an end we are struggling to reach. It's very easy to be seduced by a bit of tool bling (& I'm just as susceptible as the next bloke!), but I second D.W.'s advice: acquire tools gradually & learn to fettle & drive each thoroughly. Many of the tools I once thought essential I now know I neither need nor want.

Of course it's easy to dispense 'wisdom' from my current position. In the last 20 years or so, as my finances recovered a little from mortgages, children, and all the other vicissitudes of life, I've added a few 'nice' tools to my kit, so I risk sounding like a bit of a hypocrite. However, I've added nowhere near as many as I would have done if my discretionary spending had been up to it 40 years ago. In a strange way, it's comforting to know that if some disaster forced me to start over, even though I'd sorely miss quite a few, I could still do a tolerable job with about 1/4 of what's in my tool cupboard at the moment....

Cheers,

[Luke Maddux]

We've seen a bit of compare and contrast between the SP and a rebate plane, I am curious to see if anyone else shares this sentiment...

I use a fenced rabbet/rebate plane to cut a lot of shoulders and rebates. It's a LV Skew Rabbet.

I find, however, that I use this in tandem with my shoulder plane(s) pretty much every time it's out. Even when I'm really careful and I take my time, I still find that the SP gets at least a bit of use cleaning up tearout or fine tuning the width of shoulders after the rebate plane has bottomed out. While I may reach for the shoulder plane without the rebate plane, I don't ever really reach for the rebate plane without the shoulder plane. Given this fact - and I'm only speaking from my own experience here - I feel that the shoulder plane is a more versatile tool than the dedicated, fenced rebate plane.

Thoughts?

[IanW]

We've seen a bit of compare and contrast between the SP and a rebate plane, I am curious to see if anyone else shares this sentiment...

I use a fenced rabbet/rebate plane to cut a lot of shoulders and rebates. It's a LV Skew Rabbet.

I find, however, that I use this in tandem with my shoulder plane(s) pretty much every time it's out. Even when I'm really careful and I take my time, I still find that the SP gets at least a bit of use cleaning up tearout or fine tuning the width of shoulders after the rebate plane has bottomed out. While I may reach for the shoulder plane without the rebate plane, I don't ever really reach for the rebate plane without the shoulder plane. Given this fact - and I'm only speaking from my own experience here - I feel that the shoulder plane is a more versatile tool than the dedicated, fenced rebate plane.

Thoughts?

Luke, whatever works is what works.
I think you've got to the nub of the matter in that the shoulder plane is the acme for fine-tuning, I've not used another tool that can shave off a smidgin of cross-grain as easily & consistently. I'm reasonably competent at chopping down with a chisel along a knifed line, making overlapping cuts so the chisel is registering against a nice, flat surface, as we were shown at school, but the SP is far quicker & easier, and not subject to the occasional mis-placement of a chisel. However, the chisel usually does a perfectly acceptable job, and unless you have a serious mis-hit, the results are usually indistinguishable...

I've sometimes thought about getting a skew rebate, thinking it looks like a much more refined tool than my old blunderbuss 78, which does see use in M&T work, because it makes a very adequate job of fine-tuning tenons that manage to get cut a bit off-line. That's about all I use it for, noiw, I would never attempt to trim a shoulder with it because it's much harder to hold square, doesn't have the long toe of the SP to help keep the cut straight, and would spelch like crazy as it exited the cut. I very rarely use my 78 to cut rebates, either, it's just far too easy to cut rebates with the tablesaw, unless the piece is too big to handle safely. If it's a replacement part for an old piece I'm fixing, I might run the rebate over the sawcuts to get that 'authentic' look, but planing the whole thing down from scratch isn't my idea of time well-spent....

Cheers,

[Luke Maddux]

...it's just far too easy to cut rebates with the tablesaw, unless the piece is too big to handle safely. If it's a replacement part for an old piece I'm fixing, I might run the rebate over the sawcuts to get that 'authentic' look, but planing the whole thing down from scratch isn't my idea of time well-spent....

Yeah, fair enough. I assume you're talking about doing it with that fandangled crosscutty thingy you've got on your T-Saw? I suppose I could pull it off with my mitre gauge, but unless I was trying to smash out ten boxes I just love those thick, curly-Q shavings from the SRP.