Spear & Jackson Tenon? Dovetail? Back?

[RayG]

While we're discussing S&J saws, does anyone know where I can lay my hands on a copy of a pre-WW2 S&J catalogue? A digital copy would be fine. Someone must have one.

There is a catalog collection book that has the 1915 S&J catalog. You see it on Ebay from time to time.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/The-Hands...item4d354bc90a

1) According to my "Hand-Saw Makers of North America" book, it appears to show S&J beginning in 1915. If so, then why the split nuts?
2) Should there be an etch? (none is visible)
3) Every one I see on eBay has a brass spine, but mine is steel -- is mine the exception, or maybe a later model?
4) Curious why the SHEFFIELD stamp is slightly off-center from the Spear & Jackson stamp above it (others I've seen have SHEFFIELD centered)
5) What type of saw is this -- Back, Tenon, Dovetail?
6) Any idea on age?

Fred has pretty much covered your questions on the other forum, I don't think I can add much,

I'd probably call it a carcase saw, but the name is really neither here or there.

Stamp positions are often all over the place, sometimes even upside down. The backsaws in the 1915 catalog don't appear to have any etches. Your saw would appear to be around the 1890's give or take.

Brass spines are generally on the more premium models, bright steel or blued steel backs on some cheaper models.

Nice saw, well worth a bit of time to bring it back into service.

[schuld66]

I've cleaned up the other saw now (Lloyd Davies S&J):

- 14"
- 13 PPI
- Distance from spine to teeth = 2 5/8"
- Blade thickness = 0.026"
- steel spine
- stamp shows a crown, S&J below that, and LLOYD DAVIES under that, to the right of the stamp is a lighter stamp that reads "GERMAN STEEL"
- original handle holes seem to be the size of split nuts
- two new holes drilled -- one through the spine (obviously not the original handle)
- holes on just one side of the handle
- steel screws used to attach the handle
- there appears to be a very faint etch (too faint to photograph, but I tried)

Thoughts on this one?

Regards,
Dave
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[IanW]

.......Anyway, although it is likely a small tenon saw, I find 12" too short for practical use. Perhaps file it crosscut, around 14 tpi and use it as a carcase saw.....

Which, I think, nicely supports what I said about people & their saw preferences....

The tenon saw I use most is a 12" 12tpi, for the majority of furniture-sized work, and quite often, one of my (shorter) dovetail saws, on small tenons. I keep two carcase saws within ready reach, and the one that gets the most use is a 10" 12tpi. I have several larger, longer backsaws in the till, but they only come out for 'big' stuff like bench legs & the like. Maybe because the first decent saw I owned was an 8" 15tpi, anything longer seems big!

I reckon saws must be be one of the few items where consumers created the demand for a wide range of models rather than the manufacturers..

Cheers,

[IanW]

I've cleaned up the other saw now (Lloyd Davies S&J)...

......Thoughts on this one?.....

I think you can safely conclude the handle isn't original. I've seen at least one saw where the manufacturer had drilled through the spine for the handle bolts, so maybe that alone doesn't make the handle a later addition, but the corrosion pattern from the preceding handle doesn't match the curve at the top of the current handle.

Again it's just personal preference, but on a saw like this I would want no more than 10tpi. The reason being I would use a saw of this length for wide cuts (e.g. 100-150mm), & larger gullets carry the sawdust & allow more efficient cutting.

Cheers,

[D.W.]

Which, I think, nicely supports what I said about people & their saw preferences....

The tenon saw I use most is a 12" 12tpi, for the majority of furniture-sized work, and quite often, one of my (shorter) dovetail saws, on small tenons. I keep two carcase saws within ready reach, and the one that gets the most use is a 10" 12tpi. I have several larger, longer backsaws in the till, but they only come out for 'big' stuff like bench legs & the like. Maybe because the first decent saw I owned was an 8" 15tpi, anything longer seems big!

I reckon saws must be be one of the few items where consumers created the demand for a wide range of models rather than the manufacturers..

Cheers,

I built the big ones first. It's what the blog gurus said "you can use a 16" saw with a thin plate", that kind of thing.

I cut most of my small tenons with a good dovetail saw now, and most of the rest of the tenons with an older english saw of more normal size (14 inches long, 11 teeth per inch or so and not so much weight). My 16" tenon saw spends a lot of time hanging on the wall unless I need to rip something small.

I think most hand saws are 10-14 inches for a reason, and one that has to do with hand tool woodworking. I also think that a woodworker 150 years ago would have used a panel saw for anything large.

[RayG]

I've cleaned up the other saw now (Lloyd Davies S&J):

- 14"
- 13 PPI
- Distance from spine to teeth = 2 5/8"
- Blade thickness = 0.026"
- steel spine
- stamp shows a crown, S&J below that, and LLOYD DAVIES under that, to the right of the stamp is a lighter stamp that reads "GERMAN STEEL"
- original handle holes seem to be the size of split nuts
- two new holes drilled -- one through the spine (obviously not the original handle)
- holes on just one side of the handle
- steel screws used to attach the handle
- there appears to be a very faint etch (too faint to photograph, but I tried)

Thoughts on this one?

Regards,
Dave

Hi David,

Don't take offense, but that's what's called a "frankensaw", made up of bits from other saws, Originally that blade would have come with a closed handle, a bit like the other S&J, I'd date it as early 1900's give or take, certainly before 1914.

The handle looks like it's been salvaged from a boys toolbox saw, that type of handle was held on with wood screws from only one side. Not pretty.

I would think if the blade is straight, then you could make a new handle to suit.

Here's what the original handle probably looked like The grid overlay is 1/4"x1/4"

[TobyC]

In 1814, with the firm now run by Alexander Spear's nephew John Spear, an apprentice named Sam Jackson was added. Jackson proved a capable assistant, and in 1830 the company name was changed to Spear & Jackson.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUK/SpearJacks/sj-index.asp

[rmihai]

http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUK/SpearJacks/sj-index.asp

As I said befofore S&J up to about wwi are atleast as good as theDisstons. Especially their Lloyd Davies... Flint from Canada... The same!