Spear & Jackson Tenon? Dovetail? Back?

[schuld66]

I picked this one up yesterday, cleaned it up a bit, and took some photos. I've never acquired a Spear and Jackson before, then yesterday I buy two saws -- this one and a Lloyd Davies, which I believe is also a S&J (also a tenon, dovetail, or backsaw). Here are the specifics on this one:

-- 12", 13 PPI, Spear & Jackson SHEFFIELD on the spine, steel spine, split nuts, I believe original handle (no extra holes), blade thickness = 0.025 in

The handle was painted dark red, so I stripped that off. It looks like part of the handle had been burned at some point (maybe that's why they painted it).

Here are my questions:

1) According to my "Hand-Saw Makers of North America" book, it appears to show S&J beginning in 1915. If so, then why the split nuts?
2) Should there be an etch? (none is visible)
3) Every one I see on eBay has a brass spine, but mine is steel -- is mine the exception, or maybe a later model?
4) Curious why the SHEFFIELD stamp is slightly off-center from the Spear & Jackson stamp above it (others I've seen have SHEFFIELD centered)
5) What type of saw is this -- Back, Tenon, Dovetail?
6) Any idea on age?

I'm posting this on Backsaw.net as well.

Regards,
Dave

DSC00006.JPG DSC00007.JPG DSC00008.JPG DSC00009.JPG DSC00010.JPG

[IanW]

.......
5) What type of saw is this -- Back, Tenon, Dovetail? ....

Dave, can't answer your other questions, but my answer to #5 is that it is a back saw (i.e. it has a stiffening spine or 'back') and you can use it to cut whatever you like, according to the tooth pitch and profile & your personal preferences in a saw. This is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine, but in my view, names like 'tenon' & 'dovetail' are pretty meaningless. Different people like different sizes & pitches of saws for the same tasks, so what I would cal a tenon saw, others might call a dovetail saw, and so forth.

However, I think there is one thing that makes a saw particularly useful for a given task, and that is the 'hang angle' of the grip. Your saw has a pretty steep grip angle, which makes it comfortable to use up high, as you would when sawing tenon cheeks or dovetails. You might find this saw isn't very easy to use low down, at bench height, unless you have a very flexible wrist. So if it were mine (and if that blade cleans up tolerably well) I'd sharpen it as a rip saw. In that size of saw, I reckon 12tpi would work best for most of the jobs you are likely to call on it to do, but that depends on what sort of woods you mostly cut. It should then make a nice saw for cutting medium to moderate-sized tenons....

Cheers,

[schuld66]

Ian,

I thought it was the thickness of the blade that differentiates a backsaw, tenon saw, and dovetail saw (thought I read that somewhere in my travels through the Interweb).

Regards,
Dave

[planemaker]

http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUK/Spear...ar&Jackson.asp

[homesy135]

Here are my questions:

1) According to my "Hand-Saw Makers of North America" book, it appears to show S&J beginning in 1915. If so, then why the split nuts?
2) Should there be an etch? (none is visible)
3) Every one I see on eBay has a brass spine, but mine is steel -- is mine the exception, or maybe a later model?
4) Curious why the SHEFFIELD stamp is slightly off-center from the Spear & Jackson stamp above it (others I've seen have SHEFFIELD centered)
5) What type of saw is this -- Back, Tenon, Dovetail?
6) Any idea on age?

Nice handle! Good pick-up.


1) No, S&J started in 1833, although, S&J claim the company was started in 1760 when Alexander Spear and William Love formed a partnership. Evidence suggests the first saws were produced late in the eighteenth Century. It is my understanding split nuts continued to be used in England into the 1920's and were offered for sale until WW2.

2) Not sure. I would expect to see an etch.

3) A brass spine was generally associated with a "better quality" saw (in the UK). Lloyd Davies were a cheaper saw made by S&J. Perhaps that is reflected in the use of a steel spine.

4) Not sure. Perhaps two hand stamps were used rather than one and the stamper didn't align the marks.

5) As I understand it a backsaw is a saw that has a spine. The use of the term "backsaw" seems to be a North American term. I'd never heard of the term before the internet brought the World much closer to me and I read about North American saw experiences. To me this is a tenon saw. A dovetail saw is shorter perhaps with a thinner plate, more TPI and often with an open handle.

6) Age is difficult to determine. Extant saws bearing the Lloyd Davies name were produced circa 1910. Split nuts and that style handle were available at least up until the start of WW2.


An excellent book by Simon Barley, British Saws and Saw Makers from c1660, has plenty of information on S&J saws. In the S&J section, the author focusses on S&J branded saws rather than the the cheaper brands made by S&J (Lloyd Davies, Cockerill among others). There is a section on saw handles and saw handle fasteners.




While we're discussing S&J saws, does anyone know where I can lay my hands on a copy of a pre-WW2 S&J catalogue? A digital copy would be fine. Someone must have one.

[schuld66]

Thanks for the info. Actually, the saw in the photos is not the Lloyd Davies -- that's the other one I picked up yesterday. The one in the pictures (with the split nuts) bears the SPEAR & JACKSON SHEFFIELD stamp. The Lloyd Davies backsaw has a handle with the open bottom. I'll post photos of that one after I get it cleaned up some.

Thanks.

[planemaker]

http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php?threads/comparative-dating-by-style.111/

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.p...ubmit_thread=1

may be of some help.

Stewie;

[homesy135]

Thanks for the info. Actually, the saw in the photos is not the Lloyd Davies -- that's the other one I picked up yesterday. The one in the pictures (with the split nuts) bears the SPEAR & JACKSON SHEFFIELD stamp. The Lloyd Davies backsaw has a handle with the open bottom. I'll post photos of that one after I get it cleaned up some.

Thanks.

Sorry Dave, I misread your original post.

3) Brass spine or back associated with "better quality". Not sure if this was just a marketing ploy used in the UK and Commonwealth countries. In more recent editions of saw catalogues I've seen some saws were offered with the option of a brass spine (at an increased cost).

I think the other answers stand.

Please feel free to chip in on any of my answers. I read, hear and see things about saws and have to piece together the information. Sometimes the conclusions drawn from those pieces are wrong.

[derekcohen]

Hi schuld66
I would argue that the saw plate and steel back are from a different saw to the handle. The handle looks like it is a Groves, and the reason it has split nuts is because it used them about 200 years earlier! That is a wonderful handle.

If you remove the handle you are likely to see more holes (for the old handle).

The saw plate/back is from a short tenon saw or perhaps a carcase saw. The former start at 12" and the latter usually started at about 11". It would be more typical to find a dovetail saw around the 10" length.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[IanW]

......I thought it was the thickness of the blade that differentiates a backsaw, tenon saw, and dovetail saw (thought I read that somewhere in my travels through the Interweb)......

Dave, you may well have read that, but whether it is/was true, I doubt it. The gauge of the saw would surely have been related to the size & length of the saw to give sufficient stiffness. The old saws I've handled support that theory, but I've only had a moderate number of saws through my hands, so I could easily be wrong. Old catalogues don't explain what the differences are between saws given different labels. One can only assume the users of old were so familiar with saws they knew about any differences & didn't need to have them pointed out??

Cheers,

[schuld66]

If you remove the handle you are likely to see more holes (for the old handle).

Derek,

I had the handle off when I cleaned it up -- no extra holes. Everything lined up perfectly.

Dave

[derekcohen]

Damn .. that handle is so similar to a Groves.

Anyway, although it is likely a small tenon saw, I find 12" too short for practical use. Perhaps file it crosscut, around 14 tpi and use it as a carcase saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[D.W.]

I had three older S&J saws (still have one of them). At some point, they were done wonderful handle work, and when they went off the wagon, they went way off.

That said, the older saws have handles almost as nice as groves saws, just not quite as crisp, but still better than most custom saws sold now.

You can't tell much about a saw that's brass or steel - saws of that era in the US were usually steel, saws in the UK usually brass. Groves and other makers sold steel backed saws in the US (and probably in the UK) and disston marketed brass backed saws for the UK market later.

The stamp is probably off center because it was placed under a press or die by hand, and not struck perfectly.

Carcase saw or small tenon.

There's no etch because the saws weren't etched by S&J. They said the name, perhaps had a logo stamped into them, and if they were a fine saw, they'd often have a stamp describing the steel "london spring", etc. Good saws just said "cast steel" or nothing. Probably the difference between the two was in tensioning and maybe grind because the steels were the same.

At any rate, on a backsaw, I wouldn't expect an etch on a saw that old. they were just stamped on the spine.

[D.W.]

Damn .. that handle is so similar to a Groves.

Anyway, although it is likely a small tenon saw, I find 12" too short for practical use. Perhaps file it crosscut, around 14 tpi and use it as a carcase saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

If you go back to the mid to late 1800s, all of the saws have handles that look about the same. I can't recall the maker of a 14" tenon saw that I have, but it's a little older yet (two screws). Might be tillotson or something. Similar handle design. I think the trade prided itself on handles with a lamb's tongue, but price pressure from disston's mostly machine made handles (as well as mechanization of everything) probably killed that trade.

Groves handle work was a little more crisp, but the handles on the spears saws are very nice. Many of the larger saws have fallen into clumsy hands, though, and been broken.

[D.W.]

at 8:35 in this video (and probably before), a nice old spear and jackson crosscut saw that I got off of ebay for $16

(pre-etch days)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm1bWPzB5R4

And in this one, groves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OutDSwmbqa0

I guess it's a bit hard to tell, the wood and the work is just a bit better in the groves, similar era of make, though.

FWIW, I got that groves saw for $30 from the old fine tool journal newsletter sale, and not that long ago, before it was sold to a new owner.

There is enough saw hysteria now that I can't get saws as nice as those two for those prices.