Differences between Bowl and Spindle gouge ??

[TrickinWood]

Yes new to all theis. I recently bought a chisel set from my local hardware, to get me started on theis adventure. I will be purchasing a better set from CarbaTec (or if someone knows where else I can shop in Aust for quality tools ??), but for now, I want to learn on these, and not be worried about damaging them too much.
Of all the reading and looking I have done, I still don't know exactly, what the difference of the Spindle and Bowl Gouges are.
I see on Youtube RobbieTheWoodTurner uses his Bowl Gouges and they have a swept back grind, and it cuts so very easy.
in the images below, I have these 2 tools in the set I bought, but which is which ?/

My guess, is the larger of the 2, is a Bowl Gouge and the smaller is a Spindle Gouge ?? I only come to this solution, because of what the names denote and thinking, bigger = Bowls because of what the Gouge does ??

Can someone please enlighten me please??

gouge_1.JPGgouge_2.jpggouge_3.JPG

While I'm here, I'm not sure what a sharp gouge is, because I have never sharpened one. Are they sharp out of the box ?? or do you sharpen them one you buy them. I ask, because I had a hell of a time cutting down relatively soft wood yesterday, making a few glue block, Jam chucks and so on. It might be my technique, but I got more wood of with the Roughing Gouge then either of the 2 above.
And thirdly, what is the swept back cut that I speak of ?? Do you convert one of the gouges to a swept back design ??

Thanks in advance, and please speak in laymans terms.

Cheers

TW

[Christos]

I don't think I can truly answer the question concerning the difference between a bowl gouge and spindle gouge. I do have one spindle gouge and I mainly use that for turning beads or coves. But that being said I have also turned beads and coves using a bowl gouge.

I have never tried using a spindle gouge inside a bowl as the spindle gouge that I have has a sharper point and I think that it will catch.

With regards to shopping for turning tools as you have mention Carbatec is one place and I wish to also bring to your attention to the right of this screen there are a number of forum sponsors that sell turning tools. I will say not to be in a rush to get a set but as your needs progress get the tools as required. I might suggest getting a parting tool and a skew for your next purchase, the size of the skew is really up to you.

Normally turning tools need to be sharpen often as the edge will blunt very quickly. It is not the wood that shortens the length of the tool but the grinding(sharpening) that shortens the tool.

[Luke Maddux]

The major fundamental difference between the bowl gouge and the spindle gouge is the depth of the flute, which is the groove which runs along the length of the tool and, in turn, the size of the piece of metal used for the tool itself. The bowl gouge will have a considerably deeper flute.

A bowl gouge is designed to be "long and strong". This is for two reasons:

1. A bowl gouge is intended for faceplate turning, i.e. turning things like bowls or plates which are mounted with the grain running perpendicular to the lathe bed. These objects tend to be larger in diameter and heavier, which can result in a drastic increase in the torque to which the tool is subjected, particularly out near the rim of the bowl.

2. A bowl gouge is often used for hollowing. This can sometimes mean that the gouge is cutting with the tip at a considerable distance from the tool rest. Again, the gouge needs to be stronger so that it can hold up to the increased torque at its fulcrum point (where it contacts the tool rest) without vibrating or, worse, breaking. Attacking a faceplate piece with a spindle gouge is inefficient and risks breaking the gouge in a worst case scenario.

There are some more subtle differences as well. The handle of a bowl gouge is often longer due to the above two reasons.

Also, a bowl gouge is often ground at a steeper bevel angle than a spindle gouge. That is not necessarily always true, however, as many users prefer a high angled spindle gouge where as others may prefer a lower angled bowl gouge, while yet others may keep several gouges at various grinds for various tasks. So while that statement may be generally true, it is by no means gospel.

In an ideal world you could shave with a sharp gouge. This is not easily achieved, however, and is something to aspire to. Being able to feel a nice burr on the cutting edge and get a decent shaving with the tool right after grinding should be your first sharpening goal. When you have achieved that, try honing your tools using diamond plates, oil stones, waterstones, or some combination of the three. For now, I would focus on getting the tools to achieve what you want them to using only a bench grinder. Optimizing them for peak performance through honing is something which can (and will) come later.

Chances are your tools did not come sharp out of the box. They may not even have been as sharp as a grinder will get them, but they almost certainly weren't honed.

Regarding the spindle roughing gouge, I feel obligated to mention that you should never use a spindle roughing gouge on faceplate turning (see definition of faceplate turning above). This is extremely dangerous. Use Google to find more information about the hazards of faceplate turning with a spindle roughing gouge. Notice how I keep deliberately calling it a "spindle roughing gouge"? That's a good habit to have. It should only be used for spindle turning (when the grain of the wood runs parallel to the lathe bed).

The "swept back design" is also referred to as a fingernail grind. This is appropriate for a bowl gouge or a spindle gouge, but not for a roughing gouge. You should find plenty of information about how to grind/sharpen gouges online, but, in short, this grind requires you to simultaneously roll and sweep the gouge from side to side while grinding. I think I am safe in saying that the overwhelming majority of modern woodturners use this shape grind on their spindle and bowl gouges.

I hope that helps some.

Cheers,
Luke

[Sawdust Maker]

Have a look at the Thompson Tools web site here
There are some photos of his style of bowl gouges and spindle gouges
Thompson is in the US

Vermec sell the P&N chisels (made in Aus)
website here
They also have photos and a profile drawing (even though the roughing gouge made by P&N is different)
Vermec is in Qld

The roughing gouge is properly called a spindle roughing gouge and as commented elsewhere should only be used for spindle work

I hope that is of some help

I agree with Christos' comment buy as you think you need

For consistent sharpening a jig is handy

[Jim Carroll]

The pictures you have supplied dont give a real indication as to what tools you have.

The obvious is that there is 2 different diameters and handle lengths.

As a general rule if you were to put a spindle gouge and bowl gouge of the same diameter side by side it should be easy to pick the difference.

spindle gouge http://www.cwsonline.com.au/shop/cat...-spindle-gouge

bowl gouge http://www.cwsonline.com.au/shop/cat...-pn-bowl-gouge

The spindle gouge usually has a shallow flute and the bowl gouge has a deep flute.

As mentioned they are not sharp out of the box and do need to be sharpened. This does not matter which brand you purchase. The are shaped but not sharp.

Learn to sharpen these and use them and then replace with better quality tools

You should be able to find a club nearby to learn more about the craft.

[Mobyturns]

I would say they are bowl gouges but not typical of the depth or shape of flute we normally see for bowl gouges these days.

While starting out stick with less aggressive grinds such as the traditional grind or the transition grind that Alan Lacer's link illustrates. Purchasing a jig such as a copy of the "Wolverine" or a "Woodcut" or the Vicmarc sharpening jig will make replicating grinding angles much easier than learning hand sharpening.

Alan Lacer (USA) also has a pretty good description of "gouges" http://woodturninglearn.net/articles/sharpen2.htm

Peter Childs - http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/firsttools.htm

One handy reference site & document is the Tormek Handbook "Grinding & Sharpening Edge Tools" http://www.tormek.com/en/handbook/index.php - warning it requires registering. Not a plug for Tormek but it covers just about every wood turning tool available.

Look up this link http://www.tormek.com/en/friends/glenn_lucas.php and check out Glen Lucas' or Mike Mahoney's DVDs on bowl making.

[TrickinWood]

All good info in this post. Thank you all. I will check out all the links and take it all in.

So from all this, its still hard to determine what I have, but looking t the P&N links, I believe I have a 13mm bowl Gouge and a 10mm Spindle. Then again ?!?!?!?
I'm happy to hear that out of the box, they aren't sharp, because I was already getting disillusioned at trying to make cuts and nothing was happening. I dare say the grinder is next on my buy list. NOT going to be a Tormek though Wow they are pricey and the accessories too !! ouch

Well, I thank you all for your time, and I suppose I will just get into it, once I have a sharp tool and see where it takes me.

I want to start turning Wood Cups like these that I bought as a Template for the Grado Headphone modder's, and Pens to start with. First Sharp tools.

IMG_0056.JPGIMG_0057.JPG

Thanks again all that posted.

[Allan at Wallan]

Great post with very informative and valuable replies.

Allan

[Paul39]

TrickinWood,

I would call the two gouges you show above bowl gouges sharpened as spindle gouges. Spindle gouges are usually a bit flatter but still curved. Some manufacturers make heavier spindle gouges.

The groove in them is more of a U shape than the currently favored V shape. I prefer the U shape as I think it clears the shavings out easier.

The handles look to be of fairly recent manufacture so the gouges are probably High Speed Steel. They will serve you well. You could sharpen the long one as a bowl gouge and the shorter one as a spindle gouge.

I like to use a jig to sharpen bowl gouges because it is easy to get a consistent grind on the fingernail / Irish / swept back grind.

As mentioned above, start with a mild swept back grind until you have some experience. My first experience with a moderate swept back grind resulted in a great spiral trench in the bottom of the bowl.

As above, don't buy a set of gouges. For bowls you need a bowl gouge and a round nose scraper. I like a heavy 3/8 inch thick 1 1/2 inch wide scraper.

A parting tool is nice, which can be made of a $1.00 heavy bladed junk store knife. Grind off the sharp edge and grind the nose back around 80 degrees. You are not going to be hogging off bushels of shavings with it so you don't need high speed steel.

I'll let the spindle turners advise about spindle gouges and skews. There is lots of good advice above.

[Sawdust Maker]

I also should have mentioned that CWS also stocks P&N
and Jim is good to deal with

[Jim Carroll]

I also should have mentioned that CWS also stocks P&N
and Jim is good to deal with

Aw shucks now your making me blush.

Irene is the nice one

[Pat]

Irene is the nice one

And much better looking than Jim too!

[Mobyturns]

I dare say the grinder is next on my buy list. NOT going to be a Tormek though Wow they are pricey and the accessories too !! ouch

I stopped off to do a house call on the way back from Innisfail to help out a friend who is having issues with his bowl gouge grinds. His set up was a "909" brand low speed wet grinder with a small very soft wheel and a home made version of a Tormek SVD185 bowl gouge sharpening jig. He also had a typical bench grinder with an ALOX wheel. I "hand sharpened" the gouge to grind the initial profile on the bench grinder to match the Tormek profile and we finished shaping & sharpening on his wet stone grinder.

We managed to quite easily replicate the "Tormek style" grind on his Hamlet 3/8" bowl gouge on his gear & not surprisingly it pretty well matched the grinds on my Hamlet 3/8" bowl gouges which were produced on genuine Tormek gear.

I've never seen the "909" brand wet grinder before this. The surface finish on the gouge bevel face was coarser than the Tormek, the edge produced was keen. The "909" did not have the design refinement of a Tormek nor did his home made jig. It did the job rather well and had quite reasonable torque. I suspect on a "cost - benefit" basis it would be a more costly long term prospect as the wheel wear rate was alarming on the "909", and I'm not sure that replacement wheels would be easy to source.

Often you get better long term value and more refinement with a more expensive tool, but you don't "need" the expensive tool to achieve your aim. Learn to use what you have.

[TrickinWood]

TrickinWood,

I would call the two gouges you show above bowl gouges sharpened as spindle gouges. Spindle gouges are usually a bit flatter but still curved. Some manufacturers make heavier spindle gouges.

The groove in them is more of a U shape than the currently favored V shape. I prefer the U shape as I think it clears the shavings out easier.

The handles look to be of fairly recent manufacture so the gouges are probably High Speed Steel. They will serve you well. You could sharpen the long one as a bowl gouge and the shorter one as a spindle gouge.

I like to use a jig to sharpen bowl gouges because it is easy to get a consistent grind on the fingernail / Irish / swept back grind.

As mentioned above, start with a mild swept back grind until you have some experience. My first experience with a moderate swept back grind resulted in a great spiral trench in the bottom of the bowl.

As above, don't buy a set of gouges. For bowls you need a bowl gouge and a round nose scraper. I like a heavy 3/8 inch thick 1 1/2 inch wide scraper.

A parting tool is nice, which can be made of a $1.00 heavy bladed junk store knife. Grind off the sharp edge and grind the nose back around 80 degrees. You are not going to be hogging off bushels of shavings with it so you don't need high speed steel.

I'll let the spindle turners advise about spindle gouges and skews. There is lots of good advice above.

Thanks Paul. Some good info here as well. As I said in another thread, I like to actually hear from members on whats what and so on, instead of trying to Google and get all messed in the head with a flood of information. Will take it all on board. Cheers

I also should have mentioned that CWS also stocks P&N
and Jim is good to deal with

I'm reading more and more P&N are a brand to be reckoned with. Have looked over Jims place, and will be ordering in good time

I stopped off to do a house call on the way back from Innisfail to help out a friend who is having issues with his bowl gouge grinds. His set up was a "909" brand low speed wet grinder with a small very soft wheel and a home made version of a Tormek SVD185 bowl gouge sharpening jig. He also had a typical bench grinder with an ALOX wheel. I "hand sharpened" the gouge to grind the initial profile on the bench grinder to match the Tormek profile and we finished shaping & sharpening on his wet stone grinder.

We managed to quite easily replicate the "Tormek style" grind on his Hamlet 3/8" bowl gouge on his gear & not surprisingly it pretty well matched the grinds on my Hamlet 3/8" bowl gouges which were produced on genuine Tormek gear.

I've never seen the "909" brand wet grinder before this. The surface finish on the gouge bevel face was coarser than the Tormek, the edge produced was keen. The "909" did not have the design refinement of a Tormek nor did his home made jig. It did the job rather well and had quite reasonable torque. I suspect on a "cost - benefit" basis it would be a more costly long term prospect as the wheel wear rate was alarming on the "909", and I'm not sure that replacement wheels would be easy to source.

Often you get better long term value and more refinement with a more expensive tool, but you don't "need" the expensive tool to achieve your aim. Learn to use what you have.

I have seen those around (the 909) but I really can't come to terms with the way the wheel is positioned. I passed that over. There are also some of the cheaper Shep (dont remember the spelling) and again, the wheel just isn't in the right place for me.
I have been looking for a normal bench grinder, with a wide 40mm Alox wheel and normal 25mm wheel, and do you think I can find one in Aust anywhere. Its starting to give me the #$% because without sharp tools, I can't turn. I bought one off Timbercon in Perth yesterday, online, for them to ring me and say there is none in the country and wont be for 6 weeks. Carbatec, keep telling me, "Next Week", "Next Week" and thats happened over the last month. Frustrating much ?? Arrgghhh
I have already made up a full Jig System, with the sliding tool rest and something like the red branded Jig where you tighten the screw onto the tool, and just roll it side to side. This is the big reason for a normal 8"/6" grinder . . .

[Christos]

A little off topic so please forgive me.

But all so true.

.......Irene is the nice one