Sharpening System Upgrade - Spyderco Vs Water stone

[Flindersia]

The time has come to upgrade the old King Waterstones thathave served me well for 15+ years. Question is what to replace them with. My mainbeef is the messiness and not the quality of the end product. Even though my fineststone is an old King 6000 it still delivers me edges that can take end grainshavings off pine which has been good enough for me. So my strong preferenceis for a dry water stone that needs no more than a spray of water (I'm over the soaking thanks),or alternatively moving to something like a sypderco. Convenience is very highon my list of priorities. I’d like to stick to the trusty 1000/4000/8000 combinationor a couple of spyderco grits and a strop. I realise I run the risk of openingup all sorts of strong preferences and war wounds here but I would appreciateany guidance, particularly on the spyderco’s Vs Naniwa, Sigma, Bester, Shaptonetc

Thanks in advance

[Luke Maddux]

I, like you, use waterstones. 1000/4000/8000.

That said, I've recently spent some time with a friend with many many years more experience, and he has settled on (after many years) a two part sharpening process. Basically, in lieu of the 1000/4000, he uses a fine grit (like that's actually how it's marketed. I'm not sure of the number.) diamond plate (I would assume it's a DMT). He then uses an 8000grit Ohishi (sp?) waterstone and gets very impressive results. As good if not better than I can get with my trio of stones.

The diamond plate is a no mess situation, and the 8000 grit waterstone only requires a squirt or two of water and it's good to go.

I agree that I'm kind of over the mess associated with the waterstones, particularly the 1000grit and 4000grit, which require all of that soaking and spraying and flattening. Eventually I might give the diamond plate method a try.

I don't know much about the Spyderco sharpening system, sorry.

Hope that helps,
Luke

[Luke Maddux]

Just out of curiosity, do you use your stones for any one application more than others? Will they be used on steel which span the hardness spectrum, or do you mostly use stuff at one end or the other?

[derekcohen]

The time has come to upgrade the old King Waterstones thathave served me well for 15+ years. Question is what to replace them with. My mainbeef is the messiness and not the quality of the end product. Even though my fineststone is an old King 6000 it still delivers me edges that can take end grainshavings off pine which has been good enough for me. So my strong preferenceis for a dry water stone that needs no more than a spray of water (I'm over the soaking thanks),or alternatively moving to something like a sypderco. Convenience is very highon my list of priorities. I’d like to stick to the trusty 1000/4000/8000 combinationor a couple of spyderco grits and a strop. I realise I run the risk of openingup all sorts of strong preferences and war wounds here but I would appreciateany guidance, particularly on the spyderco’s Vs Naniwa, Sigma, Bester, Shaptonetc

Thanks in advance

King stones take me back about 15 years. I had the 800, 1200, 6000, then Gold 8000. Gave them all away, except for the 8000. It is a decent stone, but soft.

These were replaced by a mix of natural stones (which are irrelevant to the discussion since they cannot be quantified), Shapton Pro, Sigma, and lately Spyderco. So I guess I should be able to answer your question

Shapton Pros are very good stones. They hold their flatness well and cut O1 and A2 quickly. They benefit for a little soap in the water - as do all ceramic stones - to prevent stiction. The Shapton 1000 is the best in this grit I have used, and I continue to use one.

Sigma cut a wider range of steels, and do so faster in the higher grits than Shapton. I am not a fan of their 1200 - it's a bit slow. The 6000 is a very good middle stone, and MUCH preferred to the Shapton 5000, which I think is a dog. The 13000 Sigma is also better than the 12000 Shapton Pro - faster cutting and better on steels such as A2 and M2/4.

For an essential ceramic/waterstone set up, I use the Shapton 1000, and Sigma 6000 and 13000. It will make anyone happy.

The Spyderco stones came in when I was looking for a set up that required minimal upkeep (flattening and could be used dry) to take to wood shows. The Medium and Ultra Fine are excellent - stay flat like oilstones, however they do require some flattening (with diamond stones) at the start. No one really knows what their grit range is. Spyderco do not say, and when they do the grits do not make sense, being much coarser than they work. My guess is that the Medium is around 2000-3000, and the Ultra Fine is around 6000-8000. I get a good enough edge off the UF to shave. I usually add a worn-in Fine Eze-lap diamond stone to this set.

Will the Spyderco replace the Shapton/Sigma set? No, but it makes a great alternative for someone that does not have running water. The Spydercos actually work better with a little soapy water, since swarf needs to be removed.

All sharpening needs to start with good grinding. Take a look here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...ningSetUp.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Flindersia]

Thanks Derek,Thanks very much Derek. That’s the guidance I was after. CanI clarify though with a few questions. Shapton seem simple enough to acquire inOz, however, after just doing a quick search on the net Sigma seem to have asignificant range of stones. I presume it is the Sigma Power Select II 6000 andSigma Power 13000 stones that you are referring to? Second question, can youbuy these Sigma stones in Australia and if not who is the preferred supplier?
Third question, I may really indulge here and get somethingto replace the messy stone flattening technique I have been using as well(trusty old wet and dry on a glass plate). Would the preferred method forflattening the sigma’s be a diamond plate and if so which one?

[Not enough!!]

If you cannot find a supplier in Oz, there is very helpful ex-pat that sells "Sigma power select" stones from Japan ( Stuart Tierney) great service, very fast postage and good prices and he deals in aussies $$$.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...th=335_404_513

3 set series below, with a video link on his sharpening technique.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...oducts_id=1667

Regards
Steve

[derekcohen]

The Sigma are the Power and were from Stu.

Originally, I purchased the 6000 and 10000, and then he sent me to assess a 1200/13000 combo stone. This presented the opportunity to compare the Sigma against the Shapton in each of the coarse, middle and fine stages. As mentioned, I preferred the Shapton for the 1000 and the Sigma for the others. I will add that others have since discovered this combination as well.

Also, to emphasise, these stones work best - do not load up - if spritzed with a little soap in the water.

The Spyderco are 2" x 8" in dimension and not the 3" x 8" of the others. That does not matter to me since I freehand in a sideways movement. However it would be less convenient for someone using a honing guide.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

You also asked about flattening the stones.

For the Shaptons and Sigmas I use a Shapton diamond plate (275 grit) - total overkill after the DMT Extra Coarse (250-ish grit), but I picked one up at a deceased estate sale. The Spydercos were flattened first on a Eze-lap 250 and then 600. Now I just occasionally run the 600 on them to remove any inbedded swarf and ensure that they are flat (since I have also used them to prepare the backs of old blades).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Flindersia]

Thanks all. This has been really helpful for me. I’ve taken a look at the links Steve, very useful thanks. In the video clip Stuart indicates that performance is improved if the Sigma’s are left to soak. Less clogging it seems. I was hoping to get away from the whole soaking scenario so would be interested in how you have been using yours Derek. Is a spray of water acceptable on these stones or have you also found that soaking is the way to go?
Secondly, Sigma Select 1000 Vs Shapton 1000. I know you nominate a preference for the Shapton Derek but have you managed a look at the Sigma1000 (not 1200) and if so is there much difference in performance? I may just run with the Sigma 3 stone set on offer.

Thirdly, just a little clarity on your preferred fattening tool Derek. The Eze-lap, the DMT or the Shapton diamond plate? The set offered by Stuart includes an Atoma 400 diamond plate. Seems to look good in the videos but any experience with that Vs the options above would also be appreciated.

[Robson Valley]

Why bother, in this day and time, with water stones? I did and I still do. Habit, I suppose.
In the main, for "carving sharp" wood carving tools, I am inclined to use
the defined grit particle sizes as specified by 3M. I can buy those sheets from Lee Valley.
That means that I can have a fresh and very flat grit surface, any time I so choose as to replace the surface.
$5 and you will have the best-of-the-best sharpening surfaces known.

Honing? CrOx/AlOx on hard card (eg Rice Bubbles) is superior to leather on a stick.
Fresh, clean and new any time I select.

If this seems really lazy and atrocious, you are correct. I am lazy.
I wanted a carving gouge sharpening system that was cheap and easily maintained.
Maintain? Toss it in the bin and start over. What? 2 minutes?

[Flindersia]

Thanks for the advice all. I've ordered the Sigma select package from Stu which includes the 1000, 6000 and 13000 stones plus a couple of other goodies. If I don't like the 1000 Sigma I can always upgrade it as it essentially comes free within the set given I would have ordered the extras any way. Very much looking to getting it up and running in a few weeks.