Combination machine recommendations?

[rtyuiop]

Hi folks,

I am branching out a bit from turning and I think the time has almost arrived to start researching a combination jointer/thicknesser (combination to save space in the workshop) before buying later this year.

I'm looking at something respectable quality (hoping to buy it once), something like the woodman from Gregory Machinery here:

http://www.gregmach.com/product/wood...er-jointer-hh/

There's also a very similar looking machine from jet at carbatec and an equivalent leda - anyone have any suggestions which is the best bet, or if there's a comparably-priced hammer or minimax or something that I should be looking at instead?

I do mainly small stuff, so I don't necessarily need length, but a good width for thicknessing would be very handy!

Cheers,

Danny

[RoyG]

Hi folks,

I am branching out a bit from turning and I think the time has almost arrived to start researching a combination jointer/thicknesser (combination to save space in the workshop) before buying later this year.

I'm looking at something respectable quality (hoping to buy it once), something like the woodman from Gregory Machinery here:

http://www.gregmach.com/product/wood...er-jointer-hh/

There's also a very similar looking machine from jet at carbatec and an equivalent leda - anyone have any suggestions which is the best bet, or if there's a comparably-priced hammer or minimax or something that I should be looking at instead?

I do mainly small stuff, so I don't necessarily need length, but a good width for thicknessing would be very handy!

Cheers,

Danny

Danny,

I've owned a Jet JPT260M Planner/Thicknesser Combo Unit for just on two years. I bought the unit with the 3 straight cutter blades, and subsequently upgraded the machine with a Shelix style carbide insert cutter head. I bought my JPT-260M from Gregory Machinery during their run-out sale, just after Carbatec took over the Australian Jet Dealership, so I got the machine at a bargain price (about $1000 below Carbatec Retail at the time).

With the standard straight cutter blades, the machine did a good job on most timber, but produced a lot of tear-out on highly figured timber (mainly Qld Maple and Silky Oak which is what I've been using the most of). With the Shelix style cutter head, it does a much better job, but as you'll see in this forum post, even the Shelix style cutter struggles with some really highly figured wood. The additional cost of the Shelix style cutter head bought the cost of the machine up to roughly the same as the normal retail cost of a straight blade JPT-260M, so I managed to avoid over-capitalising the machine.

The JPT-260M, and the Woodman Thicknesser/Jointer Combo that you're looking at both have a curious design feature. Most Jointers have a parallelogram movement on both the in-feed and on the out-feed tables. Both of these combo machines only have a parallelogram movement on the Jointer in-feed table. In normal operation, you'll never notice this design feature. But, if your machine ever goes out of adjustment (or you have to replace the cutter head bearings after a few years), and it starts creating snipe on the trailing edge of boards being jointed (or starts creating very slightly twisted boards off the jointer), then the process of adjusting the out-feed table to eliminate snipe and twist is much harder than on a machine with a parallelogram out-feed table.

As the jointer out-feed table doesn't have a parallelogram movement, the adjustment of out-feed table height is by a combination of insertion/removal of shims from under the out-feed table side hinges, and adjustment of stops on the side of the table nearest to the operator. You use the same pair of adjustments to get the in-feed table and out-feed table to be co-planar to eliminate twist in jointed surfaces. On jointers that have parallelogram movements on the out-feed table, the in-feed and out-feed tables should forever remain co-planar (provided no one fiddles with the adjustments), and adjustment to eliminate snipe is a simple matter of using the lever to adjust the out-feed table parallelogram movement.

If I had my time over again, and I could get the machine at the right price, I'd probably go for the next bigger Jet (JPT-310HH) which has parallelogram movements on both the in-feed and out-feed tables. In your case, as you're looking at buying the Woodman with the Spiral Cutter Head fitted ex factory, your need to adjust the out-feed table will be much less, until adjustment is eventually needed due to bearing replacement or general alignment drift.

Although the Jet JPT-260M and the Woodman Thicknesser/Jointer Combo look quite similar, the Jet is manufactured in Switzerland (by Jet's parent company WMH Tool Group AG), whilst my understanding is that the Woodman Thicknesser/Jointer Combo is manufactured in Asia. (It seems that although Jet is marketed as an American company in Australia, the large majority of their 240 volt machines are manufactured in Europe. Whether the country of manufacture makes a difference to quality in this case is something that I can't answer, but I can say that I'm very impressed with the very high quality engineering of the Jet.

20150904_100234.jpgLastly, a word about cutter head design. This may be irrelevant (as I haven't had a close look at the Woodman Thicknesser/Jointer Combo with the Helical Cutter Head), but it would pay you to closely inspect the Woodman machine to ensure that the cutter head is a true Shelix style spiral cutter head.

A true spiral/helical cutter will have the individual cutters oriented in a spiral pattern, and each of the individual cutters will have the cutting edge oriented at an angle to the axis of rotation, but not angled as much as the spiral. The photo at left shows my shelix style cutter head (CTS made in China). In the photo, the wood is fed from top of photo down on the jointer. (And yes I know that the cutter inserts need cleaning )

There are some "cheapie" helical cutter heads where the individual cutters are mounted in a helical pattern, but each cutter's edge is oriented parallel to the axis of rotation. This cheapie style of spiral cutter head isn't much better than normal straight blades. And (not in the case of the Woodman which had Tungsten Carbide inserts) there are also some companies selling machines with spiral/helical style spiral cutter heads, with High Speed Steel (HSS) cutters. The machines with HSS cutters work OK, but the cutters wear out quickly. I don't know if these machines can be retrofitted with Carbide cutters to replace the HSS cutters.

The concept of buying a combo Jointer/Thicknesser because you have a small workshop is definitely a valid concept. When living in Canada as an expat a few years ago, I had a one and a half car garage sized workshop and I squeezed in a Jet 8 inch Jointer, and a Jet 12 inch Thicknesser (plus a lot of other gear), and I was always having space problems. My current workshop is about the same size, and the combo unit has freed up a lot of space, plus I have the benefit of a 10 inch wide jointer which would be huge and cost a fortune as a stand-alone 10 inch jointer.

I know it's a lot of info, but it's a big purchase, so it's best that you know all the ins and outs before laying down your hard earned cash (or before handing over the hard to pay off credit card).

Hope that info helps.

Regards,

RoyG

[safari]

A friend bought a JTP260 but he sold it after about a year because of the difficulty of levelling the outfeed table. the ease of adjustment seems very poor. If you are looking at Jet machine he would say to spend a bit more and buy the 310 model which has had pretty good reviews.

[rtyuiop]

Thanks guys for the info and experience (especially Roy, a big chunk of information like that is incredibly useful!).

I will add checking for a proper spiral helix head to my checklist, in particular!

[Luke Maddux]

I'm in the market for a combo myself. I've decided to go with the Jet.

Just to give you an idea, the Hammer analog for the Woodman you've chosen is the A3-31. It's a 4hp machine which requires a 20amp power supply. Otherwise the specs are similar, although likely far better machined and built. I recently had one quoted from Felder with the helical cutter heads, the digital adjustment wheel, and slightly discounted shipping to Brisbane resulting from good timing, and it was just under 7 grand.

I was keen on the Hammer machine, but that was just too much. By all accounts, however, it is phenomenal.

[rtyuiop]

Yeah. the hammer sounds like a damn nice machine, but it'd sure want to for the cost!

I think it'll come down to the Jet or the Woodman, depending on which looks better built when I go have a look. I have also come back around to considering maybe just grabbing a 15" thicknesser instead - not 100% sure how much use I have for a big jointer!

[aldav]

I thought all the Jet and Powermatic machines were made in Taiwan. Could be wrong but for the price I would be very surprised if any of their machines are made in Europe.

[elanjacobs]

A friend bought a JTP260 but he sold it after about a year because of the difficulty of levelling the outfeed table. the ease of adjustment seems very poor. If you are looking at Jet machine he would say to spend a bit more and buy the 310 model which has had pretty good reviews.

The 310 has had some rather poor reviews here; notably, the tables not being flat and hard to keep aligned.

[Luke Maddux]

The 310 has had some rather poor reviews here; notably, the tables not being flat and hard to keep aligned.

I'd just like to point something out...

While there were a lot of reviews and a lot of "rah rah" about the tables not being flat, I don't remember seeing a single comment about the BOARDS not being flat. I specifically asked if anyone had actually had the experience of the machine being unable to produce flat boards and all I got was crickets.

The fact that you can put a one thou feeler between a straight edge and the metal at some arbitrary point along the tables does not mean that the machine cannot do its job. I've had some recent experience with a drastically cheaper 12" jointer than the jet, and it still produced flat, square stock.

I can't comment on the tables not staying parallel. I only remember one person mentioning that.

[RoyG]

I thought all the Jet and Powermatic machines were made in Taiwan. Could be wrong but for the price I would be very surprised if any of their machines are made in Europe.

Aldav,
20150908_073323.jpg
Prepare to be surprised ......

The Jet series of Combo Planner/Thicknessers are made in Europe. When I bought my JPT-260, I asked the dealer (Gregory Machinery, just prior to Carbatec taking over Jet in Australia) where the unit was manufactured, and was advised that final assembly was conducted in Switzerland, using components manufactured in various locations in Switzerland, and the Czech Republic. The data plate on the machine backs up the Manufactured in Switzerland statement made by the dealers.

The JPT-260M that is sold in Australia is actually made for the European market, and as the EU has very strict legislation regarding "Country of Origin" labelling, I have no reason to doubt the statement that the machine is made in Switzerland (or at least undergoes major assembly there). The more cost effective pricing, when compared to other European manufactured machine tools, may be related to the fact that a portion of the component manufacture (possibly a large proportion), is done in the Czech Republic.

Just how much of the Jet branded equipment sold in Australia is manufactured in Europe, and how much is manufactured elsewhere, is something that will be hard to determine if anyone wants to know, mainly due to Australia's absence of "County of Origin" labelling laws.

Regards,

RoyG

[Pearo]

FWIW, the Brisbane rep for hammer has a second hand combo coming on the market soon. Might be a good buy. Pretty sure he said they are going to service it and replace all the bearings before selling it, but dont quote me on that.

[rtyuiop]

Thanks Pearo - noted!

[Prle77]

The carbatec combo with helical head is worth checking out...
Very similar to the straight blade one but with improvements...
improvement 1) The fence part is actually made out of cast iron rather than the aluminium one
improvement 2) The helical head is not typical carbatec helical head.. knives on this one have 150 deg radius and are a bit skewed so they actually do shear rather than chip

It is actually improved axminster combo.. take axminster one and put helical head onto it...
I've had it for about a year or so and was (and still am) quite impressed with it..
After running timber through it, timber is so smooth that it doesn't require much sanding for finishing touch..

(standard disclaimer.. not associated with carbatec or have any interest ... just a happy user..

[rtyuiop]

Yeah, the Carbatec would be ideal if it was a bit bigger. I think 10" is just a bit too small for my purposes .

[rtyuiop]

Well, ordered the woodman with helical cutter. Will report back with impressions once I have it up and running!