Saws and Planes

[Miko Zaire]

Hi All,

I have all the machinery a man could want although I have realised without a few Hand-saws and Planes I am unable to work the smaller pieces of timber as required.

I am wondering:

What are the 3 hand-saws I need to make joints, trim edges and for general furniture-creation use?

and

What are the 3 plane sizes I should invest in to get a good spread across the uses?

Also if you could please recommend some brands for these tools, mid range pricing would be great.



I have a Tables Saw, Planer, Jointer, Bandsaw & drill press.

Thank you all

Miko

[derekcohen]

Hi Miko

No doubt you will receive many answers.

Firstly, you do not specify Western vs Eastern ... but I will ignore this complication (possibly more relevant in the handsaws) and go for the Western choices.

Joinery handsaws: The three I would choose, if I could only have three saws (which is reasonable): (1) 15 tpi 10" long dovetail saw, (2) 10 tpi 14" rip long rip filed tenon saw, and (3) a 13 tpi 11" long crosscut filed carcase saw. You'll use the dovetails saw for dovetails and fine work, the tenon saw for sawing tenon cheeks, and the carcase saw for crosscutting and mitering, as well as sawing the shoulders of tenons.

Hand Planes: I will leave out the usual jointer and jack recommendations since you have these in machines. So .. (1) smoother (to replace the sander), (2) block plane (to trim edges and smooth end grain ... plus it is a great plane to get the feel of hand planing), and router plane (for hinge mortices and tuning rebates, grooves and dados).

Get some consensus here on which are the first saws and planes to add to a powertool workshop (there are others you will add later), and then look at makes and prices.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[johnc]

I could easily put in variations to what Derek has written because it all comes down to use. If you have deep pockets then go for Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley at the premium end. However going onto fleabay and picking up old Disston Saws or Stanley planes which properly sharpened will do all you need and make good users will provide what you need. I have a mongrel mix of planes from high end down to Stanley and Pope, all do the job for saws a motley collection of family hand me downs from Pax, Disston and Warranted Superior (cheap Disstons) plus a couple of flea market finds. I tend to use mainly a 13TPI tenon saw and 6TPI carpenters saw. Don't worry about the brand, just something in good order will do most weekend wood butchers.

[Bushmiller]

Milo

I am probably being a touch pedantic here, but you specified hand saws as distinct from back saws or any other saw with a strengthened spine to the back.

If it was hand saws, I would suggest a 5ppi rip, an 8ppi crosscut and a 10ppi/12ppi crosscut finishing saw (possibly in a panel size 22").

However, Derek and John have "interpreted" your request, quite arguably correctly, for the finer side of carpentry and I wouldn't disagree with them in their recommendations. A medium ppi crosscut and rip tenon and a finer ppi dovetail if you are interested in that side of the equation.

Regards
Paul

[IanW]

I'll leave the planes to others but I have a bit of experience with joinery saws, so I'll add my 2c worth.

In principle, Derek's recommendations are exactly what I'd suggest for a 'set' of basic joinery saws. For regular furniture work, I would choose slightly smaller versions of each type for myself, simply because I prefer tools at the smaller/lighter end of the spectrum, because I find them easier to use accurately. That's just personal preference, & everyone has his/her own idea of what feels right in saw sizes. As long as you can wield it comfortably, & saw accurately, that's what it's all about. With the three saws Derek suggests, you could confidently tackle most furniture projects that require traditional joinery. I own one or two saws more than that, ( ) but the ones I use most on furniture scale projects would fit right into the 3 categories mentioned.

Names of saws are confusing & inconsistent, so think along the lines of size, length, tooth pitch & pattern, rather than arbitrary names. For e.g., a 15tpi saw of 9-10 inches (225-250mm) is often called a 'dovetail saw', but think of it as a small saw for just about any cuts in wood up to about 30mm thick, not simply dovetails. I say any cuts because at that tooth pitch, it can crosscut almost as well as a saw with 'proper' crosscut teeth, and since rip configuration is far easier to sharpen, it's perhaps an ideal type of saw to try first. If you are lucky enough to stumble on an old saw of the right dimensions, that's a very good beginning, but if buying new, the Lee Valley saws are about as good a bang for your buck as you'll get. You can pay a lot more for what some would consider nicer-looking saws.

At some point, your nice little saw is going to require a bit of dentistry, because really, what makes a saw is its teeth, and they don't stay sharp forever (in fact not for very long, if you plan to get stuck into some of the tougher 'desert' woods out your way! ). If you really want to get into saws seriously, how you're going to keep them properly sharp & set is something you need to consider. Once upon a time every sizeable town had a bloke who could sharpen saws properly, but you'll go a long way to find any now - they are a breed on the verge of extinction. So you will probably have to learn to sharpen. Few folks would persevere with a dull chisel or plane blade, but it's amazing to me how many will struggle on with very dull saws! Sharpening a rip pattern saw is the easiest, and the better place to start your saw-sharpening career. Even a not-so-good sharpening is usually better than a dull saw. With practice, you can become competent enough at both rip & crosscut for practical purposes, though it takes a while to become moderately competent. I've got about 50 years to go to get to the standards of the very best, but I can make a saw do a reasonable job, when I'm having a good day.

Like so many other hand tools, saws have acquired a bit of mystique, and so there are 'boutique' saws with prices to match, but don't get sucked into splashing out wads of cash in the hope it will automatically make you an expert sawyer. With a bit of experience, you can make a cheap plastic-handled hard-point saw do good work, and a decent, well-sharpened 2nd had saw can cut every bit as well and feel just as comfortable as a fancy $300 plus job. But a saw that 'feels right' for you is worth searching for, because it becomes an extension of your arm, and makes sawing a pleasure. The right feel comes from a good handle that fits your hand, positioned to suit your sawing style & stance, and has the right amount of blade & spine to suit you & the jobs you need it for. But these attributes won't mean much to you until you have used saws for a while, & since you seem to be putting your foot in the water for the first time, I wouldn't recommend rushing out & buying a full 'set' straight off. I would suggest you choose one of the saw categories from Derek's list that matches best with the sort of work you do most - p'raps the 'dovetailer' if you have a yen to try your hand at some traditional joinery. Start using it & you should soon learn its strengths & limitations and get a good idea of where to go next.

When you find the 'right' saws and get the hang of them, you'll wonder how on earth you ever coped without them....
Cheers,

[Miko Zaire]

Wow! Thank you all for your tips! So much to learn, this forum is the best!

This thread has given me a great deal to think about in regards to my purchase, I think I will buy 1 saw and 1 plane at a time and see how I feel with each of them. I think a smaller dovetail saw as IanW mentioned would suit me as my first.

I will research on fleabay as JohnC mentioned and if I come up unlucky I will investigate the Lee Valley saws to try as my first saw. I rekon at this stage I would be best off buying new as my sharpening skills are non existent in this field.

Paul, I though all saws that weren't plugged in were called hand saws! Sorry for my ignorance. I will have to research back-saws and spine style saws also.

Derek, thanks for the run-down and spread of both Saws and Planes. I will do some reading and thinking about my use and get back to you all when I am ready to buy. (November most likely as I have a really busy 5 weeks at work coming up)


Thanks All

Miko

[Alby123]

Hi Miko regarding hand saws I would suggest that when you are doing your research don't discount Japanese saws as they do have a lot going for the. They are much easier to use giving you a much better cut and you will be surprised how well it is to learn to get the best out of them.
Cheers

[Miko Zaire]

Well my favourite knifes are Japanese so that might be an indicator! I will add it to my list for research thanks Alby!

Hi Miko regarding hand saws I would suggest that when you are doing your research don't discount Japanese saws as they do have a lot going for the. They are much easier to use giving you a much better cut and you will be surprised how well it is to learn to get the best out of them.
Cheers

[IanW]

Japanese saws have their devotees, and lots of folks find them the solution for small saws. They cut like fury, and you don't have to worry about re-sharpening them - you replace the blades when they become dull. For me, they have two drawbacks, the pull cut feathers the scribe-line, making it harder to see where I'm going, and the straight handles just don't give the same feeling of control to someone who has spent so many years holding 'western' style handles. But if you have no prior prejudices, go with what appeals to you. If you do decide on Japanese saws, & persevere until you've tamed them, there is no reason why they can't serve you very well (other than they may shed a few teeth if you use them to cut very hard woods).

Cheers,

Cheers,

[ian]

Hi Miko

No doubt you will receive many answers.

Firstly, you do not specify Western vs Eastern ... but I will ignore this complication (possibly more relevant in the handsaws) and go for the Western choices.

Joinery handsaws: The three I would choose, if I could only have three saws (which is reasonable): (1) 15 tpi 10" long dovetail saw, (2) 10 tpi 14" rip long rip filed tenon saw, and (3) a 13 tpi 11" long crosscut filed carcase saw. You'll use the dovetails saw for dovetails and fine work, the tenon saw for sawing tenon cheeks, and the carcase saw for crosscutting and mitering, as well as sawing the shoulders of tenons.

Hand Planes: I will leave out the usual jointer and jack recommendations since you have these in machines. So ..
(1) smoother (to replace the sander),
(2) block plane (to trim edges and smooth end grain ... plus it is a great plane to get the feel of hand planing), and
(3) router plane (for hinge mortices and tuning rebates, grooves and dados).

I agree that a block plane -- preferably one with a low angle blade and moveable toe is one of the first 3, but ...

if you have a well kitted out power tool shop, I believe your first plane should one you can use on a shooting board -- this can be a Stanley bench plane #5, #5-1/2 or #6 or a more specialised plane like a low angle jack or a Stanley #9 mitre plane. Taking a smidgen off the end of a piece or adjusting an angle are very common actions.
I like the mitre plane as it can also be used to adjust the rails and styles on a frame if they are not exactly flush with each other.

The 3rd first plane is either the router as recommended by Derek or a hinge mortice plane -- hinge recesses being another very common action that is often faster by hand than with a power tool.