Small home workshop, how to spend 10k?

[P.W.H.]

You'll also want a good router and a good Random orbit sander.

My suggestions are all pretty expensive. BUT we are playing a sport here, not a career, so if it doesn't take - every one of them can be resold for a fair price into a ready market.

Funny, I've been doing 'fine woodworking' since the mid-80s now and I only got a random orbital sander last year when I had to completely refinish my kitchen/dining table that had been surfaced with a super hard 2pot finish. It's a high end blue Bosch, and I'm sure it's a very nice machine, but if I didn't have to take some old finish off, I'd still stick with my finishing planes and a cabinet scraper given the choice. Sanded surfaces are always scratched and somewhat furry deep down at the very small level. I've seen microscopic photos in some Taunton publication.
Similarly, the only thing I've used my router for in all that time was to round over the edges of table tops and bench tops. It's still in near new condition -- I am planning on putting it to more use in the future, but it's never been on my list as an essential tool.

all i.m.h.o. and y.m.m.v. (standard disclaimer) of course.

[John Samuel]

The little woman gets more excited than me when I get a pretty new toy. In fact she often goes out of her way to buy them for me. She went and bought the Bessey clamps from Masters.

John

John, you are married to a goddess. Thankfully, so am I.

Cheerio!

John

[BobL]

Yesterday I raised the issue of a new (MW) toy for me for Xmas with the little woman and she said yes, provided a couple of items on the todo list received some attention.
Funny how when a similar horse related expense comes up there are no conditions involved.

[John Samuel]

Ahhh ... BobL,

I never ask permission. If necessary, it is far better to beg forgiveness. I remember coming home one day with a two-seater, V8 sports car. SWMBO (the first) was surprised, but given that she had just taken delivery of a new car, was in no position to be critical.

That's how my workshop started. I was building a new home for SWMBO (the second) when I had what alcoholics call a moment of clarity. I was doing it again ... spending all my loot on my family and bugger all on me. So, that day I ordered a shed and started buying tools. A couple of weeks later Her Indoors noticed a shed rising on the block and asked when I had ordered it.

"Same day I ordered all the tools, and they will be here next week".

[ian]

Somewhere in the middle I would say: tv cabinet, table, desk, coffee and bedside tables, some shelving, BIR and so on. Progressing slowly and building things for myself and then the family. At that point I should be able to build some ok stuff and see what happens, I have a totally different career that has been good to me, this isn't something I am looking to do commercially.

I did consider buying dressed timber but felt in the long run it would be better spent on the gear, this is based on the idea that raw unfinished timber would be substantially cheaper. I'm still trying to find good places to source raw hardwoods/reclaimed material so I actually have something to base that idea on.

starting with dressed timber, the tools you need to build one or two of these tables

are:
rule
accurate square
marking knife
marking or cutting gauge
hand held power saw
straight edge saw guide -- which will make squaring the ends of that table fairly straight forward
random orbit sander
dust collector / shop vac to connect to the sander
#5 or #6 hand plane
block plane
3 bench chisels -- 6, 12, 19mm
sharpening kit
sash clamps or parallel jaw clamps
drill
back saw, filed rip
bench or solid core door on saw horses
more clamps

and that's about it.

additional really nice to have tools are:
mitre saw -- but not necessarily a Kapex
domino -- but MUST be teamed with a decent vac


in terms of big stationary power tools, my recommendation for a starting out "set" is
dust collector
band saw -- ripping (especially rips deeper than around 85mm), cutting joints, and sawn veneers
combo jointer / thicknesser -- for size you should think in terms of the maximum depth drawer you are likely to make and to my mind that is around 200mm, so a 260mm width unit is plenty
drum sander

While a table saw has its uses, IMO too many sheds and work methods are built around its limitations. Now that sliding compound mitre saws are everywhere, a table saw is really only of limited use. a band sxaw is safer and IMO more versatile, and when you need to trim a panel to width, a track saw is as easy to set up and use and doesn't take up anywhere near the same workshop space.


In terms of the cost of rough sawn vs dressed timber
you can always buy rough sawn and then get a workshop to dress an dimension it. My consideration is -- if you spend $6,000 on a combo jointer/thicknesser and then put 500 lin.m of wood through it, dressing the timber has cost you $12 per lineal metre. Check, but I think the going rate is less than a dollar.

[The Hun]

Ahhh ... BobL,

I never ask permission. If necessary, it is far better to beg forgiveness. I remember coming home one day with a two-seater, V8 sports car. SWMBO (the first) was surprised, but given that she had just taken delivery of a new car, was in no position to be critical.

That's how my workshop started. I was building a new home for SWMBO (the second) when I had what alcoholics call a moment of clarity. I was doing it again ... spending all my loot on my family and bugger all on me. So, that day I ordered a shed and started buying tools. A couple of weeks later Her Indoors noticed a shed rising on the block and asked when I had ordered it.

"Same day I ordered all the tools, and they will be here next week".

Any risk of a third SWMBO with that approach?

Best wishes

Peter

[John Samuel]

Any risk of a third SWMBO with that approach?

Best wishes

Peter

Actually, I believe the approach reduces that risk.

Not that it matters. Neither spouse ever complained about my toys. They reckoned I earned them. My biggest challenge right now is spending money on toys I don't really need. I think a Domino will appear in the shop soon. That will be useful and will add new capability. However, what I really want is a 300 mm wide combo jointer/thicky with a helical head, but I can't bring myself to part with all that loot when the old (noisy) unit is still chugging happily along.

Every now and again I threaten to get a new u-beaut table saw, but I have become attached to the old one, and it does a perfectly good job. Mind you, I have nothing to compare it with. Never used another table saw.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

I can already see that you have a dizzying range of responses here. That's what you get if you ask a group of enthusiasts a general question. I'll tell you my path and let you gain what you wish from it.

In essence I started cheap, learned a lot, and traded up to the best I could afford over time - much more than $10,000 but over an few years. When I started I did not have $10k to spend - and I'm glad -- because I would have wasted it as I did not know quality, or enough about the equipment to know what was important to me or even how to use it properly.

My overall message is that I have found that the very best gear saves you time and is the best bet in the long run. Sometimes you can get great gear second hand to fit the budget. BUT, you need to be really sure what you need before you buy. If you aren't it can be worthwhile buying lesser machines until you work out what you really need.

I make furniture and boxes for friends and family. No woodturning. When I started I was fairly clueless and found it very hard to get good information. I didn't know enough to ask the correct questions. Most of the early machines that I bought were cheapies - Hare and Forbes table saw SB12; Carbatec bandsaw, Hare and Forbes floor standing drill press, Carbatec 400 wide drum sander, Carbatec 2 hp dusty. Carbatec 10" spiral jointer/thicknesser (not in the cheapie category). I made a large Huon Pine dining table from two stunning planks (but had help to join and flatten the planks). I made some smaller furniture and boxes etc. but my skill-set was limiting me.

Then, I started some classes and an ongoing program of workshop time with a professional woodworker here in Brisbane. Once I had experience in his excellently equipped workshop and learned how to use machines properly I realised that my gear was driving me nuts and filling my lungs with dust.

Upgrade time!

First was the dusty outside and some large ducting and modifications (lots of info on these forums how to do that) I haven't finished with that process yet and need to do much better like a Clear-Vue.

The Carbatec bandsaw went second hand on these forums. A good machine but not enough capacity and no finesse. Replaced it with a Minimax S500P US ($5,000). Now, not everyone would want an expensive beast like this - I like using wide boards so the 500 mm resaw capacity is good for me, but many people use a bandsaw for cutting curves and finer work so a much smaller capacity machine is fine - but still buy a quality brand.

The SB12 went next (also on these forums). A good capacity saw but even with a super-duper fence and Incra mitre set-up I hated the wasted set-up time. And, even though I loved the 10" spiral head thicky/jointer machine my 6m by 6m workshop was getting crowded so I chose to go for a combination machine that replaced it at the same time as the table saw. I bought a Hammer C3-31 spiral and I love it. The quality is superb, it arrived perfectly set-up and runs like a dream. No more measuring and double checking, just set the dimensions and that is what you get every time. I can't speak highly enough of the machine or the brand. I bought mine new but I have seen some good deals on second hand machines since. The sliding table to the C3-31 is great, and because it means you are working from beside the blade rather in front it makes it much safer and very unlikely you will get speared by the blade hurling an off-cut at you. If you want to cut sheet material the sliding table is really helpful, but I don't do much of that and I still use it all the time.

A good router (at least one) is essential for every workshop and you need a good router table. They don't have to be expensive and you can build your own table. Something like the Triton routers work well in router tables. The cream of the crop in routers is the Festool.

From there you can purchase gear as you find a need for it - and that is really the best approach from scratch. Don't buy it until you need to and when you do need it buy the best that you can afford.

I hope this helps.

[Chris Parks]

I can already see that you have a dizzying range of responses here. That's what you get if you ask a group of enthusiasts a general question. I'll tell you my path and let you gain what you wish from it.

In essence I started cheap, learned a lot, and traded up to the best I could afford over time - much more than $10,000 but over an few years. When I started I did not have $10k to spend - and I'm glad -- because I would have wasted it as I did not know quality, or enough about the equipment to know what was important to me or even how to use it properly.

My overall message is that I have found that the very best gear saves you time and is the best bet in the long run. Sometimes you can get great gear second hand to fit the budget. BUT, you need to be really sure what you need before you buy. If you aren't it can be worthwhile buying lesser machines until you work out what you really need.

I make furniture and boxes for friends and family. No woodturning. When I started I was fairly clueless and found it very hard to get good information. I didn't know enough to ask the correct questions. Most of the early machines that I bought were cheapies - Hare and Forbes table saw SB12; Carbatec bandsaw, Hare and Forbes floor standing drill press, Carbatec 400 wide drum sander, Carbatec 2 hp dusty. Carbatec 10" spiral jointer/thicknesser (not in the cheapie category). I made a large Huon Pine dining table from two stunning planks (but had help to join and flatten the planks). I made some smaller furniture and boxes etc. but my skill-set was limiting me.

Then, I started some classes and an ongoing program of workshop time with a professional woodworker here in Brisbane. Once I had experience in his excellently equipped workshop and learned how to use machines properly I realised that my gear was driving me nuts and filling my lungs with dust.

Upgrade time!

First was the dusty outside and some large ducting and modifications (lots of info on these forums how to do that) I haven't finished with that process yet and need to do much better like a Clear-Vue.

The Carbatec bandsaw went second hand on these forums. A good machine but not enough capacity and no finesse. Replaced it with a Minimax S500P US ($5,000). Now, not everyone would want an expensive beast like this - I like using wide boards so the 500 mm resaw capacity is good for me, but many people use a bandsaw for cutting curves and finer work so a much smaller capacity machine is fine - but still buy a quality brand.

The SB12 went next (also on these forums). A good capacity saw but even with a super-duper fence and Incra mitre set-up I hated the wasted set-up time. And, even though I loved the 10" spiral head thicky/jointer machine my 6m by 6m workshop was getting crowded so I chose to go for a combination machine that replaced it at the same time as the table saw. I bought a Hammer C3-31 spiral and I love it. The quality is superb, it arrived perfectly set-up and runs like a dream. No more measuring and double checking, just set the dimensions and that is what you get every time. I can't speak highly enough of the machine or the brand. I bought mine new but I have seen some good deals on second hand machines since. The sliding table to the C3-31 is great, and because it means you are working from beside the blade rather in front it makes it much safer and very unlikely you will get speared by the blade hurling an off-cut at you. If you want to cut sheet material the sliding table is really helpful, but I don't do much of that and I still use it all the time.

A good router (at least one) is essential for every workshop and you need a good router table. They don't have to be expensive and you can build your own table. Something like the Triton routers work well in router tables. The cream of the crop in routers is the Festool.

From there you can purchase gear as you find a need for it - and that is really the best approach from scratch. Don't buy it until you need to and when you do need it buy the best that you can afford.

I hope this helps.

This just about parallels my experience even to the brands. If I was starting today I would buy used but quality equipment, take lessons unless you are a very naturally talented person and go from there. The lessons short cut the process and let the light be seen earlier. I am sure a lot of people give up on WW due to frustration and bad equipment and both can be gotten over easily. If your bent is to hand work a good bench, some good hand tools and you are away. BTW YouTube is your friend if you cherry pick through the dross.

[BobL]

There's a tendency on these forums to focus on large power tools and machinery but what is often overlooked is the quality of materials and what can be done with very basic tools.
When I look back on the things I have made the quality of the materials used has always been more important than what machines or tools I had available.
Most of the stuff I have made has been with hand tools, a few power tools (corded drill and circular), a stick welder, and a toy combination machine (8" table saw and a 4" jointer).
If I started with rubbishy materials I always had problems but if I started with quality materials I always ended with something worthwhile.
For some reason I also seem to have been far more productive than recently with whole a shed full of machinery.

[Evanism]

Xanthorrhoeas, Chris and bobL are all correct, as are all the others.

A shed full of tools doesn't make a craftsman. What BobL just said is true....more machines doesn't necessarily make you more proficient or even more productive. Besides the extra maintenance time, setup and cleaning (I like everything absolutely spot-on every morning) there's an extra level of organisation and ergonomics/process management that needs to be applied.

There is no secret I adore the traditional Japanese way of making *anything*. Minimum tools, extra sharp, precisely applied....anything can be made. BUT you'll notice in many japanese videos that tablesaws, jointers and thicknesser are present in the background simply because they make light work of the hard (or boring) bits.

I can understand how it might be meaningful to use a certain hand plane to flatten a surface. Sixteen hours of vigorous wrenching and beers can be satisfying.... But putting it through a thicknesser is rewarding too

(I'm building a Roubo from 140x45 ironwood and there is NO WAY I'll be doing 45 metres of this by hand, no matter how romantic)

Back to ergonomics. Everyone starts with a little and the workshop looks empty. Movement is easy, things can be moved around, projects don't pile on top of each other..... Then comes the printed catalogues in the mail.... and browsing Various Websites in the wee hours on the iPad. Suddenly you need a this-and-a-that and a so-and-so jig and a dovetailing extravagance. Small money, over time, but each thing needs a place.

Things get crammed up.

Your four main machines (tablesaw, thicknesser, jointer and thickness sander) are suddenly resting places for other tools and part-projects as some sort of substitute workbench.

Maybe the best "machine" you can buy is SHELVING.

The steel kind that hammers together from Bunnings, Masters or such.... 2000 wide, 5 shelves tall and 600 deep. $60 each. Buy 5!

Shelves, well organised, store a profound amount of stuff.

One other "machine" I've found useful.... A side pouch. I've watched other woodworkers and their processes. They are terribly inefficient with their movements. Rulers (straight edge), pencils, tape measures, squares and marking knives all put down, walked away from and re-hunted for 1300 times in an afternoon. Putting them down, moving them out of the way, dropping them, refinding them.... It's... infuriating.

If I ran a woodworking biz, I'd ensure every employee had a pouch for these core things.

And a shelf

[ian]

Maybe the best "machine" you can buy is SHELVING.

The steel kind that hammers together from Bunnings, Masters or such.... 2000 wide, 5 shelves tall and 600 deep. $60 each. Buy 5!

Shelves, well organised, store a profound amount of stuff.

One other "machine" I've found useful.... A side pouch. I've watched other woodworkers and their processes. They are terribly inefficient with their movements. Rulers (straight edge), pencils, tape measures, squares and marking knives all put down, walked away from and re-hunted for 1300 times in an afternoon. Putting them down, moving them out of the way, dropping them, refinding them.... It's... infuriating.

If I ran a woodworking biz, I'd ensure every employee had a pouch for these core things.

And a shelf

[justonething]

One other "machine" I've found useful.... A side pouch. I've watched other woodworkers and their processes. They are terribly inefficient with their movements. Rulers (straight edge), pencils, tape measures, squares and marking knives all put down, walked away from and re-hunted for 1300 times in an afternoon. Putting them down, moving them out of the way, dropping them, refinding them.... It's... infuriating.
And a shelf

I had a pouch but I can't find that either, that is why I am still walking around looking for my other tools

[John.G]

I'm not a woodworker, so take this with a grain of salt, but...

I probably see the inside of more cabinet and joinery shops then most woodworkers. Some of them are single man operations, some of them might have ten tradesmen and as many apprentices. When you walk into a working shop like that you can take note of two things... the space in a workshop given over to a machine, and the money spent on the machine itself. Machines that don't get used a lot get tucked away against walls, the things that are used all the time are in the open with workspace around them. Cabinetry and joinery is a tough business to be in today, seeing where the money gets re-invested into upgraded equipment tells a story too.

So if I was setting up a shop, based on what I've seen and what I know... here's my $0.02 worth.

The first thing you need to do before you do anything else on a job is make the timber straight. Jointer be the machine for that.
Next most important machine is the thicknesser.
Both require dust extraction.

For all the talk of spiral cutter heads my preference would be 3 or preferably 4 knife Tersa. Why? Because sharp straight knives do a better job then not quite that sharp spirals. The quick change nature of the tersa system means there is no excuse for anything but sharp blades. Tersa is what I see in working shops every day, working. I know a few guys that tried spirals but changed them out, most went back to Tersa or took the upgrade to true helical heads. another thing to look at with the thicknesser is the ability to change feed speeds.

A decent tablesaw can manage 200mmm depth of cut, or at least 150mm ( 100 mm from each side): not much call for more then that. Half the time after ripping what happens next - why it gets a trip to the jointer then the thicknesser. Dead straight cuts are a lovely thing, but if they are a little off having the money spent in the right place can fix it.

The one thing I havent seen mentioned much in the preceding 4 pages is a spindle moulder.

Another thing I see a lot of is workbenches with castors, usually the rack and stack prefab sort. it gives bench space where you need it, when you need it, and can carry 20 boards from place to place as it goes.

A decent handheld sander for finish work. If you've got sharp knives in the thicknesser though you're already half way there. For tables what you really want is a wide belt sander but failing that do not underestimate a floor sander.

[John.G]

Sixteen hours of vigorous wrenching and beers can be satisfying....

First read through I thought you'd said wenching.

Sixteen hours of vigorous wenching and beers would probably leave me dead.