Thanks Thanks:  0
Likes Likes:  0
Needs Pictures Needs Pictures:  0
Picture(s) thanks Picture(s) thanks:  0
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 37
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    44

    Cool Turning SOLID TIMBER Drum Shells

    I have become obsessed with solid timber drum shells - actually turned after gluing staves, like a wine barrel, but with straight sides. Most drums are made from plywood because it’s cheap and strong. But there has been tremendous interest recently in solid stave drums because of their superior acoustic properties. They are also visually stunning. Some background / links provided below:

    Brady drums in West Australia have been producing stave shell snare drums for serveral years and are world renown, but check their prices, e.g. $1600 just for a snare drum.
    http://www.bradydrums.com.au/

    Several US companies have started offering solid timber snare drum shells, e.g.
    http://www.headdrums.com/weare.html

    There is a 16-year old guy in Sydney who is offering stave shell snare drums to the world drumming community. He will be making a stave snare shell for $120 out of timber I provided.
    http://www.imagedrumworks.com.au/

    Most stave shells are snare drums since they are relatively shallow in depth, e.g. 6 inches, and fairly thick, e.g. 0.5 to 1 inch thick. The shallow depth and the stiffness of a thick shell makes the machining and finishing of the internal surface fairly straightforward.

    However I am really intrigued by the shells offered by
    http://www.joshuatreepercussion.com/
    You can see they manufacturer a full range of sizes, including 16 inch dia x16 inch deep floor toms and 22 inch dia x 20 inch deep bass drums, but the shells are as thin as 5/16 inches (8 mm) thick. Their prices are also reasonable, but still too prohibitive to ship here to Australia and pay import duties etc.

    My question concerns the difficulties of manufacturing such large and thin drum sells. I am confident of cutting and glue up of the staves but not the final turning. The big difficulty is the finishing of the internal surfaces. Your “gut feeling” about how hard it would be to turn this sort of shell and any other information or suggestions would be very much appreciated.

  2. # ADS
    Google Adsense Advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Posts
    Many





     
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Pambula
    Age
    58
    Posts
    12,779

    Default

    Someone asked this same question last year: http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ead.php?t=8922

    Don't know what the outcome was, have a read.

    I imagine you would need some specialised turning gear to do it. Do you reckon it's worth the time and money? I don't play my kit in studios anymore, I suppose it might be nice for a natural sound there - but I doubt the average punter would tell the difference on stage.
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Age
    71
    Posts
    12,746

    Default

    Looks like an increasing number of turners aren't looking for a first class internal finish.

    Eg. going for grooved or just rough-turned insides.

    But that's a matter of aesthetics; not sure about the effect on acoustics.
    Cheers, Ern

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    44

    Cool

    Thanks for the link. This guy was thinking about starting out with a solid log, which is beyond what I want to do. As a matter of interest, there IS actually an Australian company which makes drums from solid logs. Check out these drums made from Ironwood (can you believe!!!).
    http://www.spiritdrums.com/snare/beat.html<O</O

    I really don’t care what average punters think anyway. I want to do this for the fun of it and of course to get a really great sound. As far as the money is concerned, did you check out the imagedrumworks site? A solid snare shell complete with bearing edges for $120 is unbelievable value. But the real kicker is that I have a Sleishman drumkit, where the shells are free floating, without lugs attached to the shells, see
    www.sleishman.com<O</O

    So I don’t have to buy lugs (from the US) and then drill holes in the shells for installation. Rather, I would only have to pop off the drums heads, pull out the old and insert the new shells, and bung the head back on.

    I have the 11¼ degree router bit for bevelling the edges of staves for a 16 stave shell, and will be attempting glue up of a raw stave shell soon, using pine for practice. My time is not the issue here.

    The main purpose of the post was to find out how hard the turning of the inside would be, since I have already found a hobbyist who could turn the outside of the shells, but balked about doing the inside. On the other hand, on the web I have seen the results of turning the inside of timber vases with access through unbelievable small necks. This would be much more difficult than turning the inside of a constant diameter drum shell, like I want do. <O</O

    FYI, the shell sizes (DxL mm) I am looking to have turned are:
    10x10, 12x10, 14x14, 16x16, 20x18

    Thanks

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    228

    Default

    Apologies in advance for the lengthy discourse which will veer slightly away from the specific question along the way..............


    Jon,

    Drum shells are made in four basic ways.

    1) The supposed "holy grail" is a true solid shell turned out of a solid piece of timber, Brady's do these only on special order and their asking price is approx., $6000. There is a guy up Cairns way doing them occasionally too and possibly a few other people.

    2 and 3) Stave and segmented constructions are rated similarly. Depending on the timber or combination of timbers used they can be visually "exciting". Dee Jay Drums in Adelaide work in this style and if purchasing, I would suggest them before anyone else.

    4) Ply construction, with the outer layer being either a "finish" or an "exotic" veneer which can be stained or painted. Alternatively, a lesser grade veneer is used on the outside and these shells are usually covered with "drum wrap".

    Which sounds the best?.............Disregarding the "low end" kits and commenting with only the more respected brand names in mind.........There is no definitive answer, as firstly there are too many variables within timber itself, secondly the choice of heads and hardware will usually make more difference to the sound than variations in the shells (with some exceptions) and lastly and probably most importantly is the player themselves as playing ability and style will contribute more than anything else to the sound produced.

    Oh, and as SilentC said............the average punter wouldn't know or care.

    The current interest in, specifically stave but also segmented construction has come about because every second drummer and his dog has realised that at least in principle, building a stave shell is not that difficult. On the other hand, ply construction, done correctly, requires a vastly greater level of preparatory (R&D) work, time and dollars and is fraught with many more problems which is why very few people venture down this path................how do I know? Guess what I've spent most of this year working towards ..........and I've still got a long way to go.

    OK, in regard to turning stave/segmented shells (and a lot of this was covered in that thread from last year but as I hadn't read it until now I'll carry on regardless)...........

    You could do it with a lathe which has an out-board turning capacity. Variable speed is preferable and it will need MASS in it's base to stop it wandering around. Personally, I have a Teknatool Nova with around 250kg of ballast in the base.

    You could do what a lot of the "manufacturers" are doing and purchase a suitable s/hand metalworking lathe. If of adequate size, a boring bar can be used to finish the inside of the shells. This way, you can be turning out shells without having to learn woodturning skills but please don't ever regard drums made this way as being truly "hand made".

    The third option which a number of guys have used is to make up a router jig which can be quite successful if properly designed for the specific task and is likely to be somewhat cheaper and easier to use than the other options.

    According to what he had said in the past, Image in Sydney started out using a router but has now got hold of a metal lathe, however, by his own admission he has only produced a small number of shells, consequently his experience at this time is somewhat limited but he appears to be on the improve. There are others around with way more experience.

    Fortunately or unfortunately, there are no real text books about this and there don't appear to be any hard and fast rules regarding right and/or wrong approaches to it. Personally, I haven't done enough with this form of construction to feel confident in saying anything specific apart from do as much research as possibly before committing too much time and/or dollars.

    BTW, you may find this site of interest...... http://69.36.7.211/index.php .......it is Ghostnote, a drumbuilders website heavily populated by guys from the US and a small number of Australians, UK'ites, etc.


  7. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    228

    Default

    You got your last reply in while I was still typing .

    Consider this............there is absolutely no guarantee that a solid or stave shell will sound better than what you already have in a Sleishman kit and it is quite possible that to change shells may be a backward step. Come to think of it, why you would even consider this when you have one of Don's kits is almost beyond me :eek: . I know Don Sleishman has used segmented shells for snares in the past but I would strongly suggest you discuss your ideas with him before going too much further. Also, there is a belief that the way Don does his bearing edges has a lot to do with the function of his drums.

    Actually, last week, I saw three stave shells (1 mahogany and 2 purpleheart) imported from o/seas which are probably destined to be sent down and set up in Sleishman hardware .


  8. #7
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Italy
    Age
    78
    Posts
    313

    Default

    .....
    The main purpose of the post was to find out how hard the turning of the inside would be, since I have already found a hobbyist who could turn the outside of the shells, but balked about doing the inside. On the other hand, on the web I have seen the results of turning the inside of timber vases with access through unbelievable small necks. This would be much more difficult than turning the inside of a constant diameter drum shell, like I want do. <o></o>

    FYI, the shell sizes (DxL mm) I am looking to have turned are:
    10x10, 12x10, 14x14, 16x16, 20x18

    Thanks
    The turning is not that difficult and as you say there is so much access within the drum that positioning the tools is not the problem.
    The difficulty lies in the dimention as you have to turn on a fairly large lathe.
    In addition I suppose you need to construct a supporting tool which will go IN the drum in order to handle tje tools corectly.
    All the above in feasible, and kind of fun/challenge to do. Too bad I'm so far from you as I would love to do it.
    I am sure you will find a wood turner, there are so many in Australia as compared to italy....
    Good hunt.
    Last edited by scooter; 26th March 2008 at 11:42 PM.
    http://www.la-truciolara.com/
    La Truciolara is the workshop where I do my shavings.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Oberon, NSW
    Age
    63
    Posts
    13,354

    Lightbulb

    I posted this, deleted it thinkg "nar, too silly" and then decided what the heck. If it's too silly, 'tis only another reddie or six.

    I was thinking along the lines of making a set of "super" pin-jaws to use in expansion mode when I came up with what's probably a silly idea... How about using a small car or wheel-barrow wheel (a bit larger than the intended inside dia.) mounted on a faceplate? Something with the old-fashioned squarish cross-ply tread, rather than the more modern rounded radial profile.

    Ribbon-clamp the outside of the roughed form, deflate the tyre, slip one end of the form over and re-inflate the tyre until it grips. Turn the inside of the exposed half then repeat the process, reversing the blank. Turn the outside after the innnards are finished.

    I don't know how true it would run (a pair of push-bike wheels side-by-side might be better?) but the concept might be worth looking at in more detail...
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    44

    Default Technical help on the turning problem only please

    Thanks for the education HiString – but LaTruciolara has pointed out “The main purpose of the post was to find out how hard the turning of the inside” (of the shells).

    With respect to the education - I am already aware of how drum shells are made, plus I am already a member of the Ghostnote drum forum, whose members I might add have a more POSITIVE approach and have actually provided INSPIRATION - sort of a different kind of attitude. Your “no guarantee” statement could apply to EVERYTHING that has ever been done in human history. I guess I just don’t see the point of making a statement like that. Since all of this is a deviation, I’ll finish by saying that I am not naïve and stupid and that I am seeking TECHNICAL, NOT PERSONAL advice and opinions. So please – no more comments along the lines that the shells will cost of lot of money and may not sound any good.

    I have seen and heard the segmented shells Don Sleishman has used and we both think they sound absolutely incredible. Members of Ghostnote report the same with their own drums. Don has used solid and segmented shells for his snares ONLY, for the reasons outlined in the original post. I have not discussed the solid timber shell idea for toms and bass drum with him … yet … and yes, I would probably seek his advice concerning the bearing edges. My opinion is that the shells can built for $$$reasonable and that they will sound incredible, but even more so using the Sleishman floating shell system. I am also very much aware this will require a lot of my time, but consider this type of challenge to be fun. If they don’t sound great, then I will just put the plywood shells back in. Enough already on why I want to attempt this.!!!

    On a technical issue, Don Sleishman actually cuts his own bearing edges on imported (expensive) plywood shells using what might be described as a capstan lathe, i.e. the shell rotates about a vertical axis. For non drummers, the bearing edges are on each end of the shell where each drum head makes contact, and the ends are usually chamfered inside and outside with a small radius on the tip.

    A capstan type setup might be a better option for turning the surfaces of the shells, since the weight would be supported by the rotating. Any thoughts on using a capstan lathe? <O</O

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Oberon, NSW
    Age
    63
    Posts
    13,354

    Default

    I've had a longer muse on the wheel/tyre thing and it'd probably take too much effort to get it to run true.

    Going back to more conventional methods, how 'bout modifying a set of cole jaws to take a cage? The attachment shows what I mean, apologies for "roughness." The cole-jaws are only minimally sketched here, the main reason I'd use these instead of a faceplate is the rubbers could be used to centre the drum blank. In the outer hoop, cutting slots instead of just holes for the threads would allow it to be used for a range of sizes.

    Also missing from the sketch are the wingnuts at each end of the endless threads. Use your imagination.

    The same principle could be used to turn the outside. Cole-jaws to centre the piece, a disk instead of the hoop at the other end and one piece of endless thread running through the headstock to the centre of the disk. Assuming you have a hollow headstock, of course.

    A capstan lathe would have the advantage of not needing to carry the weight, but considering the size of some blanks that even my MC-900 has handled, well...
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

  12. #11
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Italy
    Age
    78
    Posts
    313

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jon46089
    ...
    ...
    ...
    A capstan type setup might be a better option for turning the surfaces of the shells, since the weight would be supported by the rotating. Any thoughts on using a capstan lathe? <O</O
    That would probably make the turning far easyer for the external part as the drum could be fixed in a simpler way than on a traditional horizontal lathe.
    However, I do not see how you could turn the inside unled you have a Lathe used for meccanical production with automated supports for the tools.
    Maybe you should check with a meccanical workshop.

    My idea was to mount (on the horizontal lathe) the drum on a male disk (ie, the male part will block the drum from the inside) and to secure the fixing, I would have the male disk mounted on a much larger disk on which to fix several cones to push the drum from the outside toward the inside.
    The difect of that procedure is that you will probably have to do two different disks, as, when you will have finished one edge (as you explained it above, you will have to turn the drum around. At that stage both inner and outer dimensions will have change. But the challenge is quite interesting.
    http://www.la-truciolara.com/
    La Truciolara is the workshop where I do my shavings.

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    228

    Default

    Jon,

    Apologies if my posts came across that way, however my initial response was due to the fact that based on your original post, I strongly suspected that you were a lot less knowledgeable/experienced than you obviously are in regards to things drummish. Unfortunately, I didn't see your second post which somewhat clarified your position until after I had hit the submit button, etc., consequently, rather than risk being misinterpreted again, I'll bow out of any further discussion in this thread.


  14. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    44

    Default Turning Drum Shells

    No worries HiString. After sending the reply I felt my reaction a bit sensitive since you were actually trying to help.

    I am surprised to find someone who is a drummer with a good knowledge of drum shells that is active on the woodworking forums.

    Jon

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Surges Bay Tasmania - the DEEP SOUTH!
    Age
    62
    Posts
    1,180

    Default

    Looks like u owuld need to make some custon jam chuck or extended jawsa to turn the inside.lamped for outside//u would need a sizable lathe but the outbaord atahe dmention in a cm900 would be fine..i guess...about 18 inches across
    ?

    Jarrah can be a hardish would to turn..my guess would be a metal lathe would be more acruate....than chisels...a banjo maker near here, use one onj his banjo rim...s

    the barrel style and staves is pretty solid, also interlocking piece slike abanjo rim could be even more solid.....

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Norfolk,United Kingdom
    Age
    74
    Posts
    28

    Default

    Well I`ve been there and done it guys. Have a look at the photos. The quality of the photos are poor because they were scanned using a 3 in 1 printer. The finished drum looks much better than the photo. Making the blank has to be done with precission. A good sawbench and surface planer being essential pieces of equipment. First you have to decide how many staves you require, the more staves the thinner the material required. Less staves the thicker the material required to get the diameter needed. Divide 360 by the number of staves required and then further divide that result by 2 to obtain the angle of the staves sides. It`s a good idea to obtain the drum heads first so you can derive the width of the staves on paper so after turning, the drum will fit the heads. I use jubalee clips linked together to cramp the drum blank for gluing and also for dry fitting. When the blank is dry clamped you should hold it up to some light and make sure no light shows in the joints. A slight error in the stave angle always shows up in one joint anyway, so it`s easy to check. If there is a slight error in the angles I fine tune by hand with a razor sharp finely set jack plane. Care at this stage is important, you don`t want it to fall apart while turning do you, can cause injury. One of the photos shows my home made button jaws for my 4 jaw chuck. This is used to rechuck the drum blank after turning to turn the inside bevel for the leading edge. A snare bed has to be cut on one end by hand also using a slightly convex plane. I aim for about a 3/32" fall off for this.
    Bob Deacon

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Floating Vs Solid Timber floor. ( A newbie)
    By actUser in forum TIMBER
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 4th January 2006, 10:30 PM
  2. kitchen solid timber benchtops
    By TakeTwo in forum KITCHENS
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 1st May 2005, 01:04 AM
  3. Solid timber suppliers in Perth?
    By tktran in forum TIMBER
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 25th November 2004, 09:50 PM
  4. solid timber prices
    By snappperhead in forum TIMBER
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 29th October 2003, 10:52 PM
  5. Timber for wood turning
    By simmo in forum WOODTURNING - GENERAL
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 6th October 1999, 03:27 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •