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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
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    Sydney
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    590

    Default Is a No. 4-1/2 Smoother better than a No. 4?

    Hi all,

    The Lie-Nielsen website describes the No. 4-1/2 bench plane as "the ultimate smoothing plane." Can anyone please tell me if a No. 4-1/2 is that much better than a No. 4? For the sake of the argument, imagine you have to choose between a No. 4-1/2 and a No. 4 to smooth a large table-top. Which plane whould get the nod?

    Regards,
    Mirboo.

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Towradgi
    Posts
    4,835

    Smile

    These stats may help:
    The No4 has a width of 2" (50mm), Length 9 1/2" (241mm) weight 4 1/2 lbs (2.04 kg) $Au 419 - 489, while the No 4 1/2 is 2 3/8" (60m) wide, Lenght 10 3/8" (260mm) weight 5 1/2lbs (2.49kg) $Au 489.

    So after you have flattened the table with a No's 6, 7 or 8, which to use? A smaller smoother or the larger brother. depends on how much you like using a plane - go the 4 1/2. Try a no 4 1/2 from a market/ebay before shelling out the pancakes for a Lie Nielsen - very nice kit with a price to match!
    Pat
    Work is a necessary evil to be avoided. Mark Twain

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Tolmie - Victoria
    Age
    68
    Posts
    4,010

    Default

    Mirboo,

    It will depend on what planes you already own and the intended work.

    The wider blade on the 4 1/2 would be a waste if the majority of your work was planing the edges of 19mm boards.

    If on the other hand you are into planing the full width of the 60mm blade such as a table top as suggested by Pat, then the 4 1/2 would be ideal.

    Obviously there is a purpose for both planes (otherwise only one of them would be made) and unless you can afford both planes, you will need to choose the one most suited to the intended work you have for your new plane.
    - Wood Borer

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    10,810

    Default

    In my opinion the width of the blade is of less importance than the weight of the plane.

    The extra 3/8" of the #4-1/2 over the #4 is not significant. In fact there is a down side to a wider blade - it generates more resistance and thus requires more effort to push.

    There are many infill planes around that are 2" and 2-1/4" wide as standard. How are they different from a #4 (design aside)? They weigh considerably more! And it just so happens that the #4-1/2 appears to have been Stanley's answer to the competition from infill planes.

    I did a comparison of heavy verses light smoothers, with respect to LV bevel up planes (the BU Smoother - #4-1/2 size - verses the LA Smoother - #4-size). All things held as constant as possible, the heavier plane won the battle.

    Does this mean you should rush out and get the heavier plane? Not necessarily - it depends on your planing style. The heavier plane gives up some "feel" for more control. Some prefer the feel aspect, infact prefer an even smaller plane, the #3. Some prefer woodies over iron planes for this reason as well.

    If you were working hard woods, I would recommend the heaviest plane you can use (some might enjoy using a LV LA Jack under this circumstances, especially for large and FLAT surfaces).

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    kyogle N.S.W
    Age
    50
    Posts
    4,844

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirboo
    Hi all,

    The Lie-Nielsen website describes the No. 4-1/2 bench plane as "the ultimate smoothing plane." Can anyone please tell me if a No. 4-1/2 is that much better than a No. 4? For the sake of the argument, imagine you have to choose between a No. 4-1/2 and a No. 4 to smooth a large table-top. Which plane whould get the nod?

    Regards,
    Mirboo.
    To smooth a large table top, I would go for a longer plane to begin with, anyway.

    Agree wieghts nice to have.

    Personally prefer blades that arn't wide, but thick. The blade in the 4-1/2's too wide for my taste. Feels odd for a small plane to have such a wide blade. But, thats just me.

    Anyway, to get the best control in hand planing, there really is a limit to how wide a shaving can be. And the blade in a #4, even after feathering the corners, more than covers that. So, IMO, the extra width of the 4-1/2 is completely unnecessary.

    Also, if you intend using on shooting board, a #4 will be easy to control. Less effort is required to stop it from tipping, compared to the 4-1/2, due to it being so much wider ,,, uno higher, will tip easier. If that makes sense....but, then a 4-1/2 extra weight could help a bit in shooting...?? Good and bad there....still prefer the #4 though, on the shooting board

    But, again, ultimately, it shouldn't make any difference. A good sharp blade etc, etc should be all you need to get any result your after. In ,, my,,,opinion. ...I wouldn't think about it too much...not really important.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    945

    Default

    In my limited experience, unless I am working on the edge of a board I prefer 4 1/2s. I own 2 stanley 4 1/2s and I am very happy with both. The extra weight suits my style of planing and is often handy when shooting as it allows to shoot a slightly higher piece than you can with a 4, the extra weight is handy here unless of course you have to shoot 20 pieces .

    The only catch is that the extra width of blade can increase resistance in some woods especially as the blade starts to dull (usually a problem with some difficult hardwoods). This is often overcome by the greater momentum of the plane due to the extra weight. So overall I usually will chose the 4 1/2.

    The other advantage is that at least in the stanley the blade is interchangeable between the 5 1/2, 6 and 7 which is really handy if you own any of these planes as you can grind different blades with different bevels, backbevel some and not others, etc. I am not sure if this is also the case with the LN, you may want to check this.

    regards

    Marios
    You can never have enough planes, that is why Mr Stanley invented the 1/2s

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    590

    Smile Thanks everyone for the replies

    The responses so far highlight some interesting aspects for consideration when comparing the two planes. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the discussion.

    Regards,
    Mirboo.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    590

    Default I decided on a No. 4.

    After much consideration I decided on an iron (as opposed to manganese bronze) No. 4. It was delivered this morning from Lie-Nielsen Australia. I haven't used it yet, so far I'm just admiring the look and feel of it.

    Regards,
    Mirboo.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    East Bentleigh, Melbourne, Vic
    Age
    68
    Posts
    4,494

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirboo
    After much consideration I decided on an iron (as opposed to manganese bronze) No. 4. It was delivered this morning from Lie-Nielsen Australia. I haven't used it yet, so far I'm just admiring the look and feel of it.

    Regards,
    Mirboo.
    Lovely bits of kit aren't they?

    May I suggest that you give the iron a final hone before use; in fact I seem to recall that the little booklet that comes with LN planes advises this.

    Apart from that, just a general clean-up of the shipping coating, and you'll love it.

    The downside (as I have discovered - and so has my CC :eek: ), is that having one, and finding it so good, one is (very, very) tempted by all of the others. Not there yet - but a fair way along . Also, and in all fairness, I have to say that many or the LV planes meet (or even exceed) LN. Oh choices, choices....

    Thene there's the LN chisels, and, and, awwwww

    Cheers!

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    590

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Auld Bassoon
    Lovely bits of kit aren't they?
    Very nice indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auld Bassoon
    The downside (as I have discovered - and so has my CC :eek: ), is that having one, and finding it so good, one is (very, very) tempted by all of the others. Not there yet - but a fair way along
    Agree that you can't stop at one. My first Lie-Nielsen plane was the 60-1/2 adjustable mouth low angle block plane. It is a great little plane. The No. 4 was my second purchase and I hope to buy a LN jointer at some stage in the future. After that, who knows, maybe a jack plane?

    Regards,
    Mirboo.

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Rosebud Vict AUS
    Age
    83
    Posts
    437

    Default

    I have the 41/2 and love it to death! However it was improved dramatically by the purchase of the HAF (High Angle Frog) for dealing with Aussie hardwoods.
    Haven't used a 4 in a direct comparison.
    Just for what it's worth!
    JAcko

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