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  1. #1
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    Default How do you cut these unusual glazing bar joints ?

    Hello,

    I want to plane up glazing bars with different profiles than the regular ogee types I'm used to. But I'm having trouble with visualising it. Thought maybe somebody could give me some help.

    Got this absorbing book in front of me, on old wood working techniques and the like. And theres a diagram of some I'd like to try.

    However, I'm at a loss to understand how some of these profiles will cross well in a halving joint.

    First and second picture shows that halving joint....this is just the regular ogee profile (the book calls it an 'eliptical' ogee).

    My understanding of these regular ogees is that the width of the tongue and the width of tip of the sashed profile should equal in order for the bars to slip over one another with a clean look.....
    3rd picture

    But, if the top of the profile is curved....not flat.....or.....these flat widths differ how can they cross nicely ?
    4th picture shows a picture of some of the profiles I want to try.

    I'd imagine a curved top profile would meet nicely at the joint if all 4 quadrants met at a single point, uno.......but, if you had a single point, that means there's basically no width left for the tongue to slip through. :confused: any ideas ? Have I described the problem well enough ?

    ta.

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  3. #2
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    Hi, I have never seen sash bars halved in the way you have them,they would be very slow to make and cost a bundle of dollars,we always treated sash bars the same as stiles and rails ie mortise and tennon, with the rails scribed over the stile mould.
    The vertical bars are mortised and the horizontal bars are stub tennoned and scribed. Hope this helps........Peter

  4. #3
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    Jake, are you sure that the moulding is a single piece?

    Could the the profiled piece be attached to the plain section... for the types of mouldings you are looking at doing?
    Cheers,
    Clinton

    "Use your third eye" - Watson

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/clinton_findlay/

  5. #4
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    Geeze, mate, that is an Ooooold book you must have there! You don't really want it, send it here and I'll save you from yourself.

    Actually, I think you'll find that although the methods it describes are a lot fiddlier & time consuming than modern methods, they're also a damned sight more robust. Let's face it, modern methods are often just compromises.

    I think I understand what you mean by the different width profiles... with different width flats on the top it's all in the cutting. The thicker bar is cut on the moulding side, with the "straight" section of cut being the width of the flat of the narrower bar. So long as the side profiles are the same they will still match up.

    With "domed" tops you start running into trouble but my Granddad treated them the same as though it had a narrow flat, so both bars are still one piece, and then broke out the wood files and sandpaper to mould them together... The result had a bit of a "dip" at the joint but then again he was rough as guts anyway. I suspect I take after him...

    Hope you can follow what I'm on about? :confused:
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by olddog View Post
    Hi, I have never seen sash bars halved in the way you have them,they would be very slow to make and cost a bundle of dollars,we always treated sash bars the same as stiles and rails ie mortise and tennon, with the rails scribed over the stile mould.
    The vertical bars are mortised and the horizontal bars are stub tennoned and scribed. Hope this helps........Peter
    It does Help, thankyou Peter......so the vertical bar is like a style, with a mortise in the middle,,,,,,and the horizontal bar would be cut completely in two, each tennoned and scribed(coped).

    Clinton :
    yep. I'm pretty shore there all single pieces. The book hints at a single process to be used on all the profiles. But I'm just not sure.

    Skew:
    nup. didn't understand a word you said !

    no. I agree I think its a stronger looking joint. May not be practical though if you trying to make a quid doing them though.

    I'm glad you see what I mean on the dip...just don't match up, forcing you to hide it a bit......that bothers me a bit though..

    Sort of feel the blokes back then who were doing these joints with these fancy profiles took care of these sort of details though...... suspect there's something obvious I'm missing.

    It hit me last night in bed. Sat up in bed....and said AHA ! I've got it. Then realised that was wrong too......

  7. #6
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    All the old windows Ive seen were made in this way.

    Time consuming, yes.
    Fiddly, Yes.
    Cost lots, yes.

    That was the way things were done.

    Al

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    Let's see if I can put it differently...

    Assuming the routed profiles are always the same and just the thickness of the "flat tops" are different (so the overall width of the bars are different by the same amount): if the tops are the same size or wider than the tongue they can be matched seamlessly even for two different widths of top. It's just the way the cuts are made. You should be able to work it out.

    If the flats are narrower than the tongue, things won't match. Which is why the problem with the domed 'uns.

    If the flat on one piece is wider than it's tongue and the flat on t'other piece is narrower than it's tongue, then you can either match the ogees or the tongues, but not both. You can make the cuts so they'll match, but it won't assemble. Sorta like one of those damned puzzle boxes, but without a solution.

    One workaround for the domed ones is to leave a slight flat on the top, a few mm wide. It'd let you half-lap the joint and it'd take a very discerning eye to notice that the curve isn't constant.

    Gawd... it'd almost be easier to spend a day in the shed and take some pix to show you. But only almost... and I'm inherently lazy. Bad luck.
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

  9. #8
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    Jake ,

    Have seen the profiles you refer to used in europe on the odd occasion but only in the manner referred to in the picture (ie no clean intersection].

    You could always put them together in unplaned profile and then run a :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: [WARNING - SACRLIGIOUS USE OF NON-DARKSIDE TOOL AHEAD!!!] "router" around them with a gothic type profile. You would have the gothic points most of the way but a flat topped intersection - still could look quite nice and reasonably weather proof.

    Cheers

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!! View Post
    Let's see if I can put it differently...

    Assuming the routed profiles are always the same and just the thickness of the "flat tops" are different (so the overall width of the bars are different by the same amount): if the tops are the same size or wider than the tongue they can be matched seamlessly even for two different widths of top. It's just the way the cuts are made. You should be able to work it out.

    If the flats are narrower than the tongue, things won't match. Which is why the problem with the domed 'uns.
    yep..... were on the same wavelength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!! View Post
    If the flat on one piece is wider than it's tongue and the flat on t'other piece is narrower than it's tongue, then you can either match the ogees or the tongues, but not both. You can make the cuts so they'll match, but it won't assemble. Sorta like one of those damned puzzle boxes, but without a solution.
    yeah, I think your right,........your stuffed basically....the dimentions have to be spot on...every curve, rebate etc must be the same for both pieces.

    But that ant too difficult to do now days of course.......

    Did the profiles by hand plane. Wasn't that hard either with a bit of practise. Couldn't get by though without that thicknesser.

    See with hand planes you can play with any profile you like AND I don't have to drop $200 on a cope and stick router set either. Should get into hand planes skew.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!! View Post
    One workaround for the domed ones is to leave a slight flat on the top, a few mm wide. It'd let you half-lap the joint and it'd take a very discerning eye to notice that the curve isn't constant.
    Noticeable to me. Feel it would have to be painted for it not to be noticed. Just couldn't look at it.

    With smaller sized glazing bars (which I think look the best) you'd have your best chance I reakon....cause I think the thinner that tongue gets , the less chance it be noticed.

    Really uno, prefer just not to have a domed glazing bar at all, if I can't do it properly.

    Maybe the only way to use these domed topped ones is with little tennons and coped ends like Peter mentioned. ie. not possible with halving joints.

    ...still really like to know how they did in the old days. Probably need to get another book on it.....with heaps of pictures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!! View Post
    Gawd... it'd almost be easier to spend a day in the shed and take some pix to show you. But only almost... and I'm inherently lazy. Bad luck.
    Well, bugger you then...... I want to see more than those cheapo pocket knives of yours uno !

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Jake ,

    Have seen the profiles you refer to used in europe on the odd occasion but only in the manner referred to in the picture (ie no clean intersection].
    Thanks Bob. Maybe you just can't do it then.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    You could always put them together in unplaned profile and then run a :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: [WARNING - SACRLIGIOUS USE OF NON-DARKSIDE TOOL AHEAD!!!] "router" around them with a gothic type profile. You would have the gothic points most of the way but a flat topped intersection - still could look quite nice and reasonably weather proof.
    Cheers
    no couldn't do that.....thanks for the idea,....but, naaaah. No fun in that for me.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by apricotripper View Post
    Well, bugger you then...... I want to see more than those cheapo pocket knives of yours uno !
    I'll 'ave you know those are collector's items! True, they're from the collection of a bloke with few dollars and less taste, but still...
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

  13. #12
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    Here is an illustration for the 1923 volume of the Woodworker. It shows two alternative method of attaching the glazing bars.

  14. #13
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    Excellent !...thankyou mate. Just what I was after.

    tennon and cope it. No halving joints.

    Though I'm liking that dowel method....be quicker to make those.

    Thanks again. I know how to joint the fancy looking profiles now..

  15. #14
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    Default Glazing bars

    Quote Originally Posted by apricotripper View Post
    Hello,

    I want to plane up glazing bars with different profiles than the regular ogee types I'm used to. But I'm having trouble with visualising it. Thought maybe somebody could give me some help.

    Got this absorbing book in front of me, on old wood working techniques and the like. And theres a diagram of some I'd like to try.

    However, I'm at a loss to understand how some of these profiles will cross well in a halving joint.

    First and second picture shows that halving joint....this is just the regular ogee profile (the book calls it an 'eliptical' ogee).

    My understanding of these regular ogees is that the width of the tongue and the width of tip of the sashed profile should equal in order for the bars to slip over one another with a clean look.....
    3rd picture

    But, if the top of the profile is curved....not flat.....or.....these flat widths differ how can they cross nicely ?
    4th picture shows a picture of some of the profiles I want to try.

    I'd imagine a curved top profile would meet nicely at the joint if all 4 quadrants met at a single point, uno.......but, if you had a single point, that means there's basically no width left for the tongue to slip through. :confused: any ideas ? Have I described the problem well enough ?

    ta.
    Hi, thanks for inspiring me, see pic.[IMG]/E:%5CPics%5CWoodwork%5CWallunit%5CSideCupboards%5Cdoor.jpg[/IMG]

  16. #15
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    no worries.... I'd like to see your pic. not showing for some reason though.

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